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	<title>Comments on: Guest Post:  Manifestations of the Holy Ghost vs. Practical Experience: A Historical Perspective</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Julie</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-436168</link>
		<dc:creator>Julie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:13:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-436168</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Another side note here pointed out to me by my husband: In both Francis Gibbbons&#039;s biographies of Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith, there are accounts of the drowning and Joseph F. Smith&#039;s refusal to board the boat. A more detailed version of it is found in &lt;em&gt;The Life of Lorenzo Snow&lt;/em&gt;, by Thomas C. Romney. At some point, Lorenzo Snow related the experience to Heber J. Grant, telling Pres. Grant that &quot;at that particular time the Lord revealed to him the fact that the young man, Joseph F. Smith,...would someday be the Prophet of God&quot; (Romney, p.206). The author cites Improvement Era, Vol. 22:847.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another side note here pointed out to me by my husband: In both Francis Gibbbons&#8217;s biographies of Lorenzo Snow and Joseph F. Smith, there are accounts of the drowning and Joseph F. Smith&#8217;s refusal to board the boat. A more detailed version of it is found in <em>The Life of Lorenzo Snow</em>, by Thomas C. Romney. At some point, Lorenzo Snow related the experience to Heber J. Grant, telling Pres. Grant that &#8220;at that particular time the Lord revealed to him the fact that the young man, Joseph F. Smith,&#8230;would someday be the Prophet of God&#8221; (Romney, p.206). The author cites Improvement Era, Vol. 22:847.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy T</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-436161</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 17:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-436161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would reply to Matthew, but I will instead apologize to Kevin for being drawn into this tangent in the comments of his otherwise fascinating post. If anyone wants to debate public policy with me regarding CPR or other resuscitative measures or anything else to do with advocacy in the heart community, please do contact me separately.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would reply to Matthew, but I will instead apologize to Kevin for being drawn into this tangent in the comments of his otherwise fascinating post. If anyone wants to debate public policy with me regarding CPR or other resuscitative measures or anything else to do with advocacy in the heart community, please do contact me separately.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-436096</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 15:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-436096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Isn&#039;t it interesting how to some people 10 in 100 and 10% mean exactly the same thing, but to other people they apparently communicate something different?  Something to keep in mind the next time one finds one&#039;s self in a conversation where the two parties appear to be talking past one another.

Regardless of how one expresses the statistics, anyone embarking on CPR should do so with the realization that it most likely isn&#039;t going to be successful.  Otherwise, that person might be racked with guilt that they somehow &quot;failed.&quot;  This is not any different from the process of learning a new skill.  I hope no one starts with an expectation of immediate success with no failures.
From my perspective, every instance of resuscitation of someone that goes on to live is a miracle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t it interesting how to some people 10 in 100 and 10% mean exactly the same thing, but to other people they apparently communicate something different?  Something to keep in mind the next time one finds one&#8217;s self in a conversation where the two parties appear to be talking past one another.</p>
<p>Regardless of how one expresses the statistics, anyone embarking on CPR should do so with the realization that it most likely isn&#8217;t going to be successful.  Otherwise, that person might be racked with guilt that they somehow &#8220;failed.&#8221;  This is not any different from the process of learning a new skill.  I hope no one starts with an expectation of immediate success with no failures.<br />
From my perspective, every instance of resuscitation of someone that goes on to live is a miracle.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy T</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429985</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:31:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429985</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whew! That&#039;s actually what I did read into your comment, Kent. Glad you cleared that up. :)

Okay, so ten out of a hundred may have sounded illogical, but if you state that something has a ten percent chance of working, some people will see that statistic and abandon the project before it begins, but saying that you have the chance of saving the lives of ten people out of a hundred who would have died otherwise frames it in a way that people would find it to be a public policy worth promoting, along the lines of organ donation, using a bike helmet, etc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whew! That&#8217;s actually what I did read into your comment, Kent. Glad you cleared that up. <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Okay, so ten out of a hundred may have sounded illogical, but if you state that something has a ten percent chance of working, some people will see that statistic and abandon the project before it begins, but saying that you have the chance of saving the lives of ten people out of a hundred who would have died otherwise frames it in a way that people would find it to be a public policy worth promoting, along the lines of organ donation, using a bike helmet, etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Larsen</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429951</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 21:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429951</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;When bystanders use CPR in out-of-hospital cardiac events, they are able to save up to ten people out of a hundred who would otherwise die.&quot;

Amy T., I&#039;m not sure I understand your point. Isn&#039;t &quot;ten people out of a hundred&quot; 10%?

In any case, I&#039;m not trying to assert that a particular number is correct, just taht the proportion of the time that CPR is successful is lower than the proportion we see on TV.

I&#039;m merely suggesting that even with today&#039;s significantly better techniques, the chance of someone being revived from circumstances like those of Lorenzo Snow aren&#039;t high -- not the 70% that we see on TV shows.

Please tell me if my assumption is wrong.

AND, in case anyone misunderstands, I&#039;m NOT suggesting that CPR shouldn&#039;t be tried!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;When bystanders use CPR in out-of-hospital cardiac events, they are able to save up to ten people out of a hundred who would otherwise die.&#8221;</p>
<p>Amy T., I&#8217;m not sure I understand your point. Isn&#8217;t &#8220;ten people out of a hundred&#8221; 10%?</p>
<p>In any case, I&#8217;m not trying to assert that a particular number is correct, just taht the proportion of the time that CPR is successful is lower than the proportion we see on TV.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m merely suggesting that even with today&#8217;s significantly better techniques, the chance of someone being revived from circumstances like those of Lorenzo Snow aren&#8217;t high &#8212; not the 70% that we see on TV shows.</p>
<p>Please tell me if my assumption is wrong.</p>
<p>AND, in case anyone misunderstands, I&#8217;m NOT suggesting that CPR shouldn&#8217;t be tried!</p>
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		<title>By: Amy T</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429742</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, medical history. That&#039;s my first love when it comes to history.

The chances of any of the people in this story having heard of mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is somewhere between negligible and zero.

Kent, I just looked at your link, and the information about CPR in there is entirely about end-of-life care, when the patient is terminal and CPR is being listed as part of a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order. Their use or misuse of the ten percent statistic (probably from this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21796098) is unfortunate if applied to the general population, especially if you consider cases like Lorenzo Snow&#039;s drowning. When bystanders use CPR in out-of-hospital cardiac events, they are able to save up to ten people out of a hundred who would otherwise die.

Everyone should know CPR, and it should be used as necessary. The new CPR guidelines no longer include doing concurrent mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, so that removes the &quot;ick&quot; factor for many people.

Although this video is a little too short -- you don&#039;t want to do CPR on someone who has fainted or is having a seizure -- it does show how to do teen and adult CPR; heels of both hands together on breastbone; press hard at about 100 beats per minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgmledxFe8

Child CPR is slightly different, and anyone who spends much time with children should know how to do it as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, medical history. That&#8217;s my first love when it comes to history.</p>
<p>The chances of any of the people in this story having heard of mouth-to-mouth resuscitation is somewhere between negligible and zero.</p>
<p>Kent, I just looked at your link, and the information about CPR in there is entirely about end-of-life care, when the patient is terminal and CPR is being listed as part of a Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) order. Their use or misuse of the ten percent statistic (probably from this study: <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21796098" rel="nofollow">http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21796098</a>) is unfortunate if applied to the general population, especially if you consider cases like Lorenzo Snow&#8217;s drowning. When bystanders use CPR in out-of-hospital cardiac events, they are able to save up to ten people out of a hundred who would otherwise die.</p>
<p>Everyone should know CPR, and it should be used as necessary. The new CPR guidelines no longer include doing concurrent mouth-to-mouth resuscitation, so that removes the &#8220;ick&#8221; factor for many people.</p>
<p>Although this video is a little too short &#8212; you don&#8217;t want to do CPR on someone who has fainted or is having a seizure &#8212; it does show how to do teen and adult CPR; heels of both hands together on breastbone; press hard at about 100 beats per minute:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgmledxFe8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgmledxFe8</a></p>
<p>Child CPR is slightly different, and anyone who spends much time with children should know how to do it as well.</p>
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		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429664</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 15:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429664</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kent, Benson had not served a mission to Europe.  Cluff had served in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, so it is a remote possibility, but his own account would indicate that he was not familiar with the technique.  Smith had returned only a year earlier from 3 years in England, but as he was still on the ship, even if he had been familiar with MMV, he would not have been in a position to help.  All in all, I am inclined to give full credence to the title of the lesson.  What my research did indicate to me is that MMV was not really ever a recognized practice in the United States during the 19th century, where American exceptionalism and Jacksonian democracy seemed not at all reluctant to reject any European medical innovations, like Pasteur&#039;s germ theory, say, or Lister&#039;s antiseptic practices (tongue firmly in cheek, but only slightly.)

Thanks to all for the comments, and especially TOC for his incredible find regarding Alma Smith.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kent, Benson had not served a mission to Europe.  Cluff had served in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, so it is a remote possibility, but his own account would indicate that he was not familiar with the technique.  Smith had returned only a year earlier from 3 years in England, but as he was still on the ship, even if he had been familiar with MMV, he would not have been in a position to help.  All in all, I am inclined to give full credence to the title of the lesson.  What my research did indicate to me is that MMV was not really ever a recognized practice in the United States during the 19th century, where American exceptionalism and Jacksonian democracy seemed not at all reluctant to reject any European medical innovations, like Pasteur&#8217;s germ theory, say, or Lister&#8217;s antiseptic practices (tongue firmly in cheek, but only slightly.)</p>
<p>Thanks to all for the comments, and especially TOC for his incredible find regarding Alma Smith.</p>
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		<title>By: Reeta Z</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429495</link>
		<dc:creator>Reeta Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429495</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What a wonderful and uplifting story for the morning.  It is so wonderful to know and realize that the Holy Ghost works with you in such a detailed way, due to your faith.  A great lesson!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a wonderful and uplifting story for the morning.  It is so wonderful to know and realize that the Holy Ghost works with you in such a detailed way, due to your faith.  A great lesson!</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Larsen</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429364</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Larsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 11:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429364</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also taught this lesson on Sunday and in my research reached a similar conclusion about the use of MMV. Wikipedia indicates that MMV was in use in the UK by the Royal Humane Society, so it is theoretically possible if one of these three (Benson, Cluff and Smith) had been in the UK they might have learned the technique. [I ran out of time to research if any of them had been in the UK]. Also, since it was a technique aimed at drowning victims, I would assume it would spread among sailors?

BUT, my research was colored by a show on Radiolab (http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2013/jan/15/bitter-end/) that reported that CPR works so infrequently (less than 10% of cases) that doctors generally don&#039;t want it used on them personally!!

I don&#039;t know if MMV&#039;s success rate is much better than CPR or not, but I suspect it isn&#039;t too different -- CPR is kind of a successor to MMV, after all.

Our perceptions of reviving someone are colored by television, where CPR works about 70% of the time. he reality is that reviving someone like this is usually not successful.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also taught this lesson on Sunday and in my research reached a similar conclusion about the use of MMV. Wikipedia indicates that MMV was in use in the UK by the Royal Humane Society, so it is theoretically possible if one of these three (Benson, Cluff and Smith) had been in the UK they might have learned the technique. [I ran out of time to research if any of them had been in the UK]. Also, since it was a technique aimed at drowning victims, I would assume it would spread among sailors?</p>
<p>BUT, my research was colored by a show on Radiolab (<a href="http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2013/jan/15/bitter-end/" rel="nofollow">http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2013/jan/15/bitter-end/</a>) that reported that CPR works so infrequently (less than 10% of cases) that doctors generally don&#8217;t want it used on them personally!!</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if MMV&#8217;s success rate is much better than CPR or not, but I suspect it isn&#8217;t too different &#8212; CPR is kind of a successor to MMV, after all.</p>
<p>Our perceptions of reviving someone are colored by television, where CPR works about 70% of the time. he reality is that reviving someone like this is usually not successful.</p>
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		<title>By: Niklas</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2013/02/19/guest-post-manifestations-of-the-holy-ghost-vs-practical-experience-a-historical-perspective/comment-page-1/#comment-429164</link>
		<dc:creator>Niklas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Feb 2013 07:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=21160#comment-429164</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great insights!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great insights!</p>
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