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	<title>Comments on: “Fulfillment of Prophecy” &#8230; in the Third Reich</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266571</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 18:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All the appeals for charity are beginning to have the exact opposite effect on me--I&#039;m inclined to go back and parse Pres. Budge&#039;s statement more carefully to see whether he deserves a more charitable reading than he has been given here.  

Upon further review, he deserves less.

First, as to what he knew:  the laws barring Jews from the Civil Service and from the professions were not secrets.  Nobody could say of those laws as they did of the concentration camps:  &quot;I had no idea what was going on in that camp in the woods just a few kilometers from my lovely Bavarian village, full of gemütlichkeit and lovely Mädchen in Dirndl.&quot;  Pres. Budge implies that he knew.  What else could he have meant when he cited the law&#039;s requirement that a person prove his &quot;pedigree&quot; in order to retain his position?  Were the Nazis a bunch of Young Earth Creationists trying to bar those recently descended from apes from working for Deutsche Post?

While he was describing the fulfillment of prophecy in &quot;Reborn Germany&quot; he spoke of the influence that the words of Malachi had on the Third Reich.  Really?  The Nazis weren&#039;t persecuting the Jews--they were just turning the hearts of the children to their fathers?  [Insert appropriate barnyard epithet here.]

And, as long as he was describing the fulfillment of prophecy, why didn&#039;t he go for the whole enchilada and cite I Nephi 19:13-14, and point out the glorious fulfillment of that prophecy too?  Because if any nation hated the Jews, Nazi Germany did, and with gusto.  How better to show that the Church in German was filled with loyal citizens.

The 20th century Church seemed to put a premium on getting along--it&#039;s a good thing that a majority of the Continental Congress weren&#039;t 20th century Mormons, or we&#039;d still be singing &quot;God Save the Queen&quot; and curtseying when she came near.  But getting along--not stirring things up--does not require that we cite with approval the horrid things being done by the government.  The problem with Pres. Budge is that he crossed that line.

If we don&#039;t make that (or at least some) judgment, then why bother studying the past?  

A good example of how to do that while at the same time being charitable toward those who lived in those difficult times was shown by Churchill upon the death, in November 1940, of Neville Chamberlain.  One key excerpt:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Read &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/speeches-of-winston-churchill/104-neville-chamberlain&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the whole thing&lt;/a&gt;--it&#039;s simply amazing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the appeals for charity are beginning to have the exact opposite effect on me&#8211;I&#8217;m inclined to go back and parse Pres. Budge&#8217;s statement more carefully to see whether he deserves a more charitable reading than he has been given here.  </p>
<p>Upon further review, he deserves less.</p>
<p>First, as to what he knew:  the laws barring Jews from the Civil Service and from the professions were not secrets.  Nobody could say of those laws as they did of the concentration camps:  &#8220;I had no idea what was going on in that camp in the woods just a few kilometers from my lovely Bavarian village, full of gemütlichkeit and lovely Mädchen in Dirndl.&#8221;  Pres. Budge implies that he knew.  What else could he have meant when he cited the law&#8217;s requirement that a person prove his &#8220;pedigree&#8221; in order to retain his position?  Were the Nazis a bunch of Young Earth Creationists trying to bar those recently descended from apes from working for Deutsche Post?</p>
<p>While he was describing the fulfillment of prophecy in &#8220;Reborn Germany&#8221; he spoke of the influence that the words of Malachi had on the Third Reich.  Really?  The Nazis weren&#8217;t persecuting the Jews&#8211;they were just turning the hearts of the children to their fathers?  [Insert appropriate barnyard epithet here.]</p>
<p>And, as long as he was describing the fulfillment of prophecy, why didn&#8217;t he go for the whole enchilada and cite I Nephi 19:13-14, and point out the glorious fulfillment of that prophecy too?  Because if any nation hated the Jews, Nazi Germany did, and with gusto.  How better to show that the Church in German was filled with loyal citizens.</p>
<p>The 20th century Church seemed to put a premium on getting along&#8211;it&#8217;s a good thing that a majority of the Continental Congress weren&#8217;t 20th century Mormons, or we&#8217;d still be singing &#8220;God Save the Queen&#8221; and curtseying when she came near.  But getting along&#8211;not stirring things up&#8211;does not require that we cite with approval the horrid things being done by the government.  The problem with Pres. Budge is that he crossed that line.</p>
<p>If we don&#8217;t make that (or at least some) judgment, then why bother studying the past?  </p>
<p>A good example of how to do that while at the same time being charitable toward those who lived in those difficult times was shown by Churchill upon the death, in November 1940, of Neville Chamberlain.  One key excerpt:</p>
<blockquote><p>Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.</p></blockquote>
<p>Read <a href="https://www.winstonchurchill.org/learn/speeches/speeches-of-winston-churchill/104-neville-chamberlain" rel="nofollow">the whole thing</a>&#8211;it&#8217;s simply amazing.</p>
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		<title>By: ji</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266481</link>
		<dc:creator>ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Sep 2012 15:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266481</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[None of us today really knows what things were like then and there.  We don&#039;t appreciate the extraordinary pressure Latter-day Saints felt to prove that they were loyal Germans and good citizens, and that the German branches of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were not threats to the new order.  Even the President of the Church himself visited Germany in 1937 and &quot;&lt;i&gt;urged the members to remain, get along, and not cause trouble&lt;/i&gt;&quot; (from Wikipedia article on Helmuth Huebener).  When those people in history did and said things in order to protect their families and their branches, well, I will not condemn them.  May God bless them, and may we be charitable towards them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>None of us today really knows what things were like then and there.  We don&#8217;t appreciate the extraordinary pressure Latter-day Saints felt to prove that they were loyal Germans and good citizens, and that the German branches of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints were not threats to the new order.  Even the President of the Church himself visited Germany in 1937 and &#8220;<i>urged the members to remain, get along, and not cause trouble</i>&#8221; (from Wikipedia article on Helmuth Huebener).  When those people in history did and said things in order to protect their families and their branches, well, I will not condemn them.  May God bless them, and may we be charitable towards them.</p>
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		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266106</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quantumleap, what you point out in your # 20 is what I think we are all dealing with here:  context.  The timing of Pres. Budge&#039;s letter raises many questions that unfortunately we can&#039;t answer, and I tried to exercise some caution and give Pres. Budge the benefit of the doubt in all of this.  We don&#039;t know how much he knew, and we suspect that he may have known more than he let on.  Was he concerned about his mail being intercepted and read?  Again, speculation. We just don&#039;t know what he knew, absent some other documentation. My first inclination is to assume the best, but leave room for disappointment.  No question that growing up in the most racially diverse city in Utah in the 60&#039;s, I should have been more sensitive to the priesthood and temple ban than I was.  My motives were good, but I was unfortunately a product of the prevailing culture and my kind and loving parents incomplete understanding.  I&#039;ll echo Mark&#039;s comment and be charitable, but still see that from our perspective (20/20 hindsight and all) he was knowingly or not putting lipstick on a filthy pig.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quantumleap, what you point out in your # 20 is what I think we are all dealing with here:  context.  The timing of Pres. Budge&#8217;s letter raises many questions that unfortunately we can&#8217;t answer, and I tried to exercise some caution and give Pres. Budge the benefit of the doubt in all of this.  We don&#8217;t know how much he knew, and we suspect that he may have known more than he let on.  Was he concerned about his mail being intercepted and read?  Again, speculation. We just don&#8217;t know what he knew, absent some other documentation. My first inclination is to assume the best, but leave room for disappointment.  No question that growing up in the most racially diverse city in Utah in the 60&#8242;s, I should have been more sensitive to the priesthood and temple ban than I was.  My motives were good, but I was unfortunately a product of the prevailing culture and my kind and loving parents incomplete understanding.  I&#8217;ll echo Mark&#8217;s comment and be charitable, but still see that from our perspective (20/20 hindsight and all) he was knowingly or not putting lipstick on a filthy pig.</p>
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		<title>By: Amy T</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266068</link>
		<dc:creator>Amy T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 18:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266068</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Strangely enough, this conversation is reminding me of a game of Dutch Blitz.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strangely enough, this conversation is reminding me of a game of Dutch Blitz.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266048</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266048</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Strike that &quot;hide&quot; in the third line of the penultimate paragraph, and insert &quot;justify&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Strike that &#8220;hide&#8221; in the third line of the penultimate paragraph, and insert &#8220;justify&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266047</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:25:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266047</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hadn&#039;t noticed any lack of charity towards Pres. Budge--but perhaps I&#039;m not sufficiently sensitive to what I read here.  On the other hand, several years&#039; experience reading comments from the regulars here gives me some idea of the tone beyond just the printed words.

Surely it would be unfair to blame Pres. Budge with foreknowledge of the horrors that were to visited upon the Jews by the Nazis during the next 11 years.  I don&#039;t think anybody could have imagined them in 1934--I&#039;m not even sure that the Nazis themselves could have--and when stories leaked out of occupied Europe about what was happening in the extermination camps, those stories were dismissed by many as outlandish propaganda--surely a civilized European people like the Germans would never sink to such barbarism.

But Pres. Budge must have known that the laws in Germany in 1934 specifically barred Jews from the civil service and from the professions.  No amount of economic revival or renewed national pride (or even advances of genealogical research!) can hide such unjust discrimination against an entire people.  I should have hoped that something would have rung out loudly and clearly:  That&#039;s not right.  But, sadly, he either didn&#039;t hear that ringing, or he decided that the economic discrimination against the Jews was an acceptable price to pay for those other &quot;good&quot; things.

And we can still be charitable towards him while concluding that that was just wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hadn&#8217;t noticed any lack of charity towards Pres. Budge&#8211;but perhaps I&#8217;m not sufficiently sensitive to what I read here.  On the other hand, several years&#8217; experience reading comments from the regulars here gives me some idea of the tone beyond just the printed words.</p>
<p>Surely it would be unfair to blame Pres. Budge with foreknowledge of the horrors that were to visited upon the Jews by the Nazis during the next 11 years.  I don&#8217;t think anybody could have imagined them in 1934&#8211;I&#8217;m not even sure that the Nazis themselves could have&#8211;and when stories leaked out of occupied Europe about what was happening in the extermination camps, those stories were dismissed by many as outlandish propaganda&#8211;surely a civilized European people like the Germans would never sink to such barbarism.</p>
<p>But Pres. Budge must have known that the laws in Germany in 1934 specifically barred Jews from the civil service and from the professions.  No amount of economic revival or renewed national pride (or even advances of genealogical research!) can hide such unjust discrimination against an entire people.  I should have hoped that something would have rung out loudly and clearly:  That&#8217;s not right.  But, sadly, he either didn&#8217;t hear that ringing, or he decided that the economic discrimination against the Jews was an acceptable price to pay for those other &#8220;good&#8221; things.</p>
<p>And we can still be charitable towards him while concluding that that was just wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266041</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Move over, quantumleap, and make room for me to share your soap box!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Move over, quantumleap, and make room for me to share your soap box!</p>
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		<title>By: quantumleap42</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-266040</link>
		<dc:creator>quantumleap42</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2012 17:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-266040</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I was reading this post and some of the comments I was reminded of something a history teacher once taught me. The course of history is not obvious to those who are living it. I remember reading about the experience of someone who spent some time in Austria (I don&#039;t remember if it was on this blog or elsewhere). After getting to know some people they asked the older people about their memories of the German take over of Austria. Every single person they asked stated that they were opposed to it, yet this person noted that at the time 50% of the people in Austria were in favor pf it. It was only after the war that everyone &quot;remembered&quot; being opposed to it all along.

Just think of this hypothetical situation (I don&#039;t think that this will happen, but it is a possibility). How many people have cheered the recent changes in the Middle East with the Arab Spring? There have been many people, including Church leaders who have spoken positively of the changes happening there and have noted that the people seem to be looking for greater freedom. What if in a few years these recently democratized countries felt pressured by outside forces and decided to band together to form an alliance.

After some internal wrangling the countries involved declare a new Caliphate. The European Union over reacts to the creation of a new Caliphate and through a series of unfortunate events we end up in the middle of World War III. Atrocities are committed all around and afterwards we look back and say &quot;You know some people actually supported what was going on there.&quot; and will bring out a statement by Elder So and So post it on a blog and everyone will gasp and wonder how they could have been so blind. And people will comment and say, &quot;Oh well they were trying to see the good in a bad situation.&quot; And others will say, &quot;Well he only made that statement in July 2012 or January 2013, and it wasn&#039;t until December 2012 when ________ did ________, which obviously was the start of the atrocities that happened in 2021. They must have seen what was happening in 2012. I wonder why they didn&#039;t speak out about it and condemn it?&quot;

Perhaps we all should strive to have more charity towards those who are caught up in the ebb and flow of history as opposed to those of us who have the luxury of reading about it in a book with clearer vision. If we do this then perhaps those in the future will do the same to us.

Sorry Ardis, I&#039;ll get off my soap box now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I was reading this post and some of the comments I was reminded of something a history teacher once taught me. The course of history is not obvious to those who are living it. I remember reading about the experience of someone who spent some time in Austria (I don&#8217;t remember if it was on this blog or elsewhere). After getting to know some people they asked the older people about their memories of the German take over of Austria. Every single person they asked stated that they were opposed to it, yet this person noted that at the time 50% of the people in Austria were in favor pf it. It was only after the war that everyone &#8220;remembered&#8221; being opposed to it all along.</p>
<p>Just think of this hypothetical situation (I don&#8217;t think that this will happen, but it is a possibility). How many people have cheered the recent changes in the Middle East with the Arab Spring? There have been many people, including Church leaders who have spoken positively of the changes happening there and have noted that the people seem to be looking for greater freedom. What if in a few years these recently democratized countries felt pressured by outside forces and decided to band together to form an alliance.</p>
<p>After some internal wrangling the countries involved declare a new Caliphate. The European Union over reacts to the creation of a new Caliphate and through a series of unfortunate events we end up in the middle of World War III. Atrocities are committed all around and afterwards we look back and say &#8220;You know some people actually supported what was going on there.&#8221; and will bring out a statement by Elder So and So post it on a blog and everyone will gasp and wonder how they could have been so blind. And people will comment and say, &#8220;Oh well they were trying to see the good in a bad situation.&#8221; And others will say, &#8220;Well he only made that statement in July 2012 or January 2013, and it wasn&#8217;t until December 2012 when ________ did ________, which obviously was the start of the atrocities that happened in 2021. They must have seen what was happening in 2012. I wonder why they didn&#8217;t speak out about it and condemn it?&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps we all should strive to have more charity towards those who are caught up in the ebb and flow of history as opposed to those of us who have the luxury of reading about it in a book with clearer vision. If we do this then perhaps those in the future will do the same to us.</p>
<p>Sorry Ardis, I&#8217;ll get off my soap box now.</p>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-265207</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-265207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is interesting to me from the other side of things. My ancestors were German Jews, and smuggling Jewish genealogical information to both preserve it, and to keep it away from German authorities who were using them to seperate out those with any Jewish ancestors. 

I wonder if the church had a part in that. With the information I have found through the Jewish genealogical organization often comes from Salt Laje, but doesn&#039;t say how it got there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is interesting to me from the other side of things. My ancestors were German Jews, and smuggling Jewish genealogical information to both preserve it, and to keep it away from German authorities who were using them to seperate out those with any Jewish ancestors. </p>
<p>I wonder if the church had a part in that. With the information I have found through the Jewish genealogical organization often comes from Salt Laje, but doesn&#8217;t say how it got there.</p>
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		<title>By: FoxyJ</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2012/09/18/fulfillment-of-prophecy-in-the-third-reich/comment-page-1/#comment-265170</link>
		<dc:creator>FoxyJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:11:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=19187#comment-265170</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A few years ago I read the autobiography of F. Enzio Busche, a German general authority who was a young boy at the time the Nazis came to power. Although I&#039;ve read a number of books about Germany during that time period, Elder Busche had some interesting insights about how the German people received the Nazis. From his perspective, the Nazi party used good things in a twisted way to gain power (he draws the parallel with Satan tempting us with things that seem &#039;good&#039; but for bad ends): family unity, childbearing, genealogy, work, national pride. None of those are bad things in and of themselves, but when they are used as means to an end in the way the Nazis did, they become bad. I&#039;m not sure if I&#039;m explaining myself well, but Elder Busche&#039;s book helped me understand the German people in a way that I had not before.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few years ago I read the autobiography of F. Enzio Busche, a German general authority who was a young boy at the time the Nazis came to power. Although I&#8217;ve read a number of books about Germany during that time period, Elder Busche had some interesting insights about how the German people received the Nazis. From his perspective, the Nazi party used good things in a twisted way to gain power (he draws the parallel with Satan tempting us with things that seem &#8216;good&#8217; but for bad ends): family unity, childbearing, genealogy, work, national pride. None of those are bad things in and of themselves, but when they are used as means to an end in the way the Nazis did, they become bad. I&#8217;m not sure if I&#8217;m explaining myself well, but Elder Busche&#8217;s book helped me understand the German people in a way that I had not before.</p>
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