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	<title>Comments on: A Living Faith: What You Know that Harold Bloom Doesn&#8217;t</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Julia</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-259314</link>
		<dc:creator>Julia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Aug 2012 04:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-259314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[With Romney running for president, there seem to be even more of these &quot;fuzzy logic&quot; without much experience infused. Over at BCC, this current thread is a case in point (out of hundreds of choices)

  http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/08/27/ben-witherington-on-whether-mormons-are-christian&lt;a href=&quot;http://http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/08/27/ben-witherington-on-whether-mormons-are-christians/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;s/

At least it is giving us lots of practice talking about what it means to be Mormon!

Julia
poetrysansonions.blogspot.com]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With Romney running for president, there seem to be even more of these &#8220;fuzzy logic&#8221; without much experience infused. Over at BCC, this current thread is a case in point (out of hundreds of choices)</p>
<p>  <a href="http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/08/27/ben-witherington-on-whether-mormons-are-christian" rel="nofollow">http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/08/27/ben-witherington-on-whether-mormons-are-christian</a><a href="http://http://bycommonconsent.com/2012/08/27/ben-witherington-on-whether-mormons-are-christians/" rel="nofollow">s/</p>
<p>At least it is giving us lots of practice talking about what it means to be Mormon!</p>
<p>Julia<br />
poetrysansonions.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Allison in Atlanta</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-161231</link>
		<dc:creator>Allison in Atlanta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 19:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-161231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I appreciate your comments, Ardis, and the intellectual feedback from others.

I can&#039;t speak to Mr. Bloom&#039;s paradigm directly since I have not studied his writing.  However, it does not surprise me in light of other Christians not being able to understand a &quot;living&quot; prophet and ongoing revelation - let alone someone of the Jewish faith where they only have commentaries being added to the original Torah (missing a lot of revelation - ancient and recent.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate your comments, Ardis, and the intellectual feedback from others.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t speak to Mr. Bloom&#8217;s paradigm directly since I have not studied his writing.  However, it does not surprise me in light of other Christians not being able to understand a &#8220;living&#8221; prophet and ongoing revelation &#8211; let alone someone of the Jewish faith where they only have commentaries being added to the original Torah (missing a lot of revelation &#8211; ancient and recent.)</p>
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		<title>By: Rameumptom</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-160365</link>
		<dc:creator>Rameumptom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-160365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I remember hearing Jan Shipps at a Mormon conference in Indianapolis a few years ago.  She told of an early Saint who lived near Ogden.  Each day, the woman would step out her front door and curse the mountains.  When someone asked her why she just didn&#039;t leave, the woman sighed and said, &quot;because this is my home.&quot;  Her place was with the saints, no matter how awful a situation.
The Church has weathered many difficulties over the years. It amazes me to think we have grown as we have, given those trials.  Yet, it has grown because it has adapted and always sought to be forward looking, even while remembering its past.
I agree with Ardis. Had the Church remained in its pristine 1830 belief, it would have shriveled up and died. Today we have new dynamics.  Just look at the attention the &quot;I&#039;m a Mormon&quot; campaign is getting (front page of NY Times last week). A little Church of 14 million worldwide should not have so much power as this one does (consider the number of LDS in Congress, two running for president who are seen as the only grown ups in the crowd, etc).  That hasn&#039;t happened because we focus only on the past.
Given Bloom&#039;s book, The American Religion, and how it positively discusses both Joseph Smith and Thomas S Monson, I think his NY Times article is more of a political reaction against the concept of a Mormon possibly becoming president than it is a deliberate attack that goes contra his earlier writing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember hearing Jan Shipps at a Mormon conference in Indianapolis a few years ago.  She told of an early Saint who lived near Ogden.  Each day, the woman would step out her front door and curse the mountains.  When someone asked her why she just didn&#8217;t leave, the woman sighed and said, &#8220;because this is my home.&#8221;  Her place was with the saints, no matter how awful a situation.<br />
The Church has weathered many difficulties over the years. It amazes me to think we have grown as we have, given those trials.  Yet, it has grown because it has adapted and always sought to be forward looking, even while remembering its past.<br />
I agree with Ardis. Had the Church remained in its pristine 1830 belief, it would have shriveled up and died. Today we have new dynamics.  Just look at the attention the &#8220;I&#8217;m a Mormon&#8221; campaign is getting (front page of NY Times last week). A little Church of 14 million worldwide should not have so much power as this one does (consider the number of LDS in Congress, two running for president who are seen as the only grown ups in the crowd, etc).  That hasn&#8217;t happened because we focus only on the past.<br />
Given Bloom&#8217;s book, The American Religion, and how it positively discusses both Joseph Smith and Thomas S Monson, I think his NY Times article is more of a political reaction against the concept of a Mormon possibly becoming president than it is a deliberate attack that goes contra his earlier writing.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-159598</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Nov 2011 21:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-159598</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d also like to point out that being educated does not equate to intelligent.  Nor does being intellectual necessarily correspond to intelligence.   

In his opinion piece, Bloom&#039;s prejudices and passions at times belie any professed intellectualism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d also like to point out that being educated does not equate to intelligent.  Nor does being intellectual necessarily correspond to intelligence.   </p>
<p>In his opinion piece, Bloom&#8217;s prejudices and passions at times belie any professed intellectualism.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-158795</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:23:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-158795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I really like Ardis&#039;s expression of the idea that in spite of all the changes throughout church history, it is that essence of continuing revelation and faith in fundamentals that makes my religion work for me as it did for my ancestors in Joseph&#039;s day. If I sat down with my 3rd or 4th great-grandparents over all those generations and &quot;progress&quot; of the world, I think I would have more in common with them than I would with Harold Bloom or any number of today&#039;s eastern intellectuals or southern anti-intellectuals. (just to keep this in my passionately moderate perspective).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like Ardis&#8217;s expression of the idea that in spite of all the changes throughout church history, it is that essence of continuing revelation and faith in fundamentals that makes my religion work for me as it did for my ancestors in Joseph&#8217;s day. If I sat down with my 3rd or 4th great-grandparents over all those generations and &#8220;progress&#8221; of the world, I think I would have more in common with them than I would with Harold Bloom or any number of today&#8217;s eastern intellectuals or southern anti-intellectuals. (just to keep this in my passionately moderate perspective).</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond Takashi Swenson</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-158484</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond Takashi Swenson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-158484</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Professor Bloom&#039;s rant is a cautionary tale for anyone who wants to assume they can forego the labor of personal education and thought by accepting as true anything said by a nominal &quot;authority&quot; on a topic.  The fact that he felt free to expose his own ignorance so egregiously says as much about the modern state of academia as anything about Bloom himself.  

Now, as to the more general point Ardiss made about the fact that change is a necessary corollary to our belief in continuing revelation, I think this is one of the fundamental forces driving Mormon history.  Over the course of my lifetime, there have been many changes, from how we train missionaries, to how we finance church buildings and operations, to who we ordain to the priesthood, to the curriculum of Sunday School and Priesthood/Relief Society, to the Church magazines, to the mission of Ricks College, to the way we design and build temples, which have been driven by revelatory changes that adapt the Church from one of a million members at my birth, principally in the Western US, to one of 14 million now, distributed worldwide.  I cannot think of anything about these changes that I would want to change back.

Sometimes when we look back in Church history, the events during the life of Joseph Smith are so varied and tumultuous that it is hard to appreciate they all happened in about 15 years.  The changes in the Church during Joseph&#039;s short lifetime, in organization and community integration, are amazing, and they laid the foundation for the building of a state-size LDS community in the West.  I get the sense when reading about the Saints in Joseph&#039;s day that part of the reason they followed him was because they lived in anticipation of the gems of new revelation he might share with them on any given Sunday.  While the pace of revelation-driven change has obviously slowed, much of the hope I feel for the ongoing success of the Church is due to the expectation that, as inevitable challenges arise, we will be ready to meet them, not only through new revelation to prophets, but also because we as a people are acclimated to carrying out the changes we are invited to make.  

And let me add here that I believe one of the major reasons why so many people of so many different viewpoints on religion are hostile toward the Church is that its success, not only its growth but also the competence exhibited in the design and execution of its work, is scary to them.  It is a force that they see coming, but they do not understand its motivations and its ethics.  It is a movement that they do not feel confident they can control.  Some of them are literally panicky about each further advance of the Mormon tide, and focus on Mitt Romney as the crest of a wave they fear will pull them under.  In the view of the paranoid, every statistic that Mormons tout, such as the loyalty with which our teenagers support their parents&#039; religious faith, or the number of Mormons in positions of influence, just amplifies their paranoia.  That means that ANYTHING Mormons do that demonstrates success and achievement and growth will be viewed with apprehension by many people.  And since we Mormons fully expect that the trend of achievement will continue upward, we can look forward to even higher levels of opposition and criticism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Professor Bloom&#8217;s rant is a cautionary tale for anyone who wants to assume they can forego the labor of personal education and thought by accepting as true anything said by a nominal &#8220;authority&#8221; on a topic.  The fact that he felt free to expose his own ignorance so egregiously says as much about the modern state of academia as anything about Bloom himself.  </p>
<p>Now, as to the more general point Ardiss made about the fact that change is a necessary corollary to our belief in continuing revelation, I think this is one of the fundamental forces driving Mormon history.  Over the course of my lifetime, there have been many changes, from how we train missionaries, to how we finance church buildings and operations, to who we ordain to the priesthood, to the curriculum of Sunday School and Priesthood/Relief Society, to the Church magazines, to the mission of Ricks College, to the way we design and build temples, which have been driven by revelatory changes that adapt the Church from one of a million members at my birth, principally in the Western US, to one of 14 million now, distributed worldwide.  I cannot think of anything about these changes that I would want to change back.</p>
<p>Sometimes when we look back in Church history, the events during the life of Joseph Smith are so varied and tumultuous that it is hard to appreciate they all happened in about 15 years.  The changes in the Church during Joseph&#8217;s short lifetime, in organization and community integration, are amazing, and they laid the foundation for the building of a state-size LDS community in the West.  I get the sense when reading about the Saints in Joseph&#8217;s day that part of the reason they followed him was because they lived in anticipation of the gems of new revelation he might share with them on any given Sunday.  While the pace of revelation-driven change has obviously slowed, much of the hope I feel for the ongoing success of the Church is due to the expectation that, as inevitable challenges arise, we will be ready to meet them, not only through new revelation to prophets, but also because we as a people are acclimated to carrying out the changes we are invited to make.  </p>
<p>And let me add here that I believe one of the major reasons why so many people of so many different viewpoints on religion are hostile toward the Church is that its success, not only its growth but also the competence exhibited in the design and execution of its work, is scary to them.  It is a force that they see coming, but they do not understand its motivations and its ethics.  It is a movement that they do not feel confident they can control.  Some of them are literally panicky about each further advance of the Mormon tide, and focus on Mitt Romney as the crest of a wave they fear will pull them under.  In the view of the paranoid, every statistic that Mormons tout, such as the loyalty with which our teenagers support their parents&#8217; religious faith, or the number of Mormons in positions of influence, just amplifies their paranoia.  That means that ANYTHING Mormons do that demonstrates success and achievement and growth will be viewed with apprehension by many people.  And since we Mormons fully expect that the trend of achievement will continue upward, we can look forward to even higher levels of opposition and criticism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-158461</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-158461</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The fact that his essay appears in the New York Times makes his current opinions and analysis even less relevant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The fact that his essay appears in the New York Times makes his current opinions and analysis even less relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-158460</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-158460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Bloom&#039;s essay highlights well why I never cared for his chapter on Mormons way back in the 90&#039;s. It seemed clear to me that he was merely projecting his preferences onto Joseph Smith.  Thus the overstating of the Kabbalistic parallels and so forth.  It was less history than it was wish fulfillment.  

But at the time (early 90&#039;s as I recall) everyone was talking Bloom up simply because he was saying (they thought) nice things about us. Now he&#039;s saying really similar things, but because he&#039;s ultimately taking a negative stance folks are all up in arms. 

Honestly though I don&#039;t see a big difference between the two.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Bloom&#8217;s essay highlights well why I never cared for his chapter on Mormons way back in the 90&#8242;s. It seemed clear to me that he was merely projecting his preferences onto Joseph Smith.  Thus the overstating of the Kabbalistic parallels and so forth.  It was less history than it was wish fulfillment.  </p>
<p>But at the time (early 90&#8242;s as I recall) everyone was talking Bloom up simply because he was saying (they thought) nice things about us. Now he&#8217;s saying really similar things, but because he&#8217;s ultimately taking a negative stance folks are all up in arms. </p>
<p>Honestly though I don&#8217;t see a big difference between the two.</p>
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		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-158459</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-158459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ummm, yeah. The first two paragraphs detract from the thesis of the post.   

Bloom&#039;s current and previous states or conditions are irrelevant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ummm, yeah. The first two paragraphs detract from the thesis of the post.   </p>
<p>Bloom&#8217;s current and previous states or conditions are irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: Mommie Dearest</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/18/a-living-faith/comment-page-1/#comment-158447</link>
		<dc:creator>Mommie Dearest</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15423#comment-158447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I guess I should amend the &quot;pea-brained&quot; part in Bloom&#039;s case...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I should amend the &#8220;pea-brained&#8221; part in Bloom&#8217;s case&#8230;</p>
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