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	<title>Comments on: Think Like a Historian: Henry Troemner and Brigham Young</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150686</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:55:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15147#comment-150686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, you die-hard cynic, you! (Not that cynicism can&#039;t be truth!)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, you die-hard cynic, you! (Not that cynicism can&#8217;t be truth!)</p>
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		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150683</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 18:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[The folks in Philadelphia must have known that Henry Troemer was dead, so your question about why leaves only the cynical reason of &quot;selling newspapers&quot;.  Much as we decry the ethics of journalists today, it was much less formalized in the past, and in 1887, polygamy and Mormons were hot topics, likely to spur some additional sales at the newsstands.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The folks in Philadelphia must have known that Henry Troemer was dead, so your question about why leaves only the cynical reason of &#8220;selling newspapers&#8221;.  Much as we decry the ethics of journalists today, it was much less formalized in the past, and in 1887, polygamy and Mormons were hot topics, likely to spur some additional sales at the newsstands.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150589</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15147#comment-150589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, that was easy, Mark. You&#039;re drafted as my historical companion for having so easily ruled out the possibility that this account was anything like an accurate report!

The timing just doesn&#039;t pan out. Henry died in 1873. Brigham died in 1877; Grant visited Utah in 1876 -- so Mark is right that, had the visit occurred as reported, it would have to have been during the winter of 1876-77, after Henry&#039;s death.

Grant is right about the absurdity of the account of reaching Salt Lake Valley.

Some other things that readers might have considered in evaluating the likelihood that this was a more-or-less truthful report, even if garbled in its details:

Can you find any confirming evidence that Henry Troemner actually went out to San Francisco?  (I couldn&#039;t. Several Googled sources say he provided the scales for the Mint there, but I couldn&#039;t find any indication that he&#039;d ever been called out to test or seal them.)

Given the conditions of transcontinental travel in 1876, how likely is it that a man of Henry&#039;s age would have made such a trip? 

Is there any evidence from Utah sources that Henry was there?  You might have searched -- vainly -- the online Utah newspapers at DigitalNewspapers.org;  if you had access, you might also have searched the index to the Journal History in the Church History Library (Henry isn&#039;t listed there). Neither absence would definitively prove he *wasn&#039;t* there, but a note in either place would have definitively proved that he *had* come.

If you&#039;ve ever visited the Brigham Young properties (the Beehive House, the Lion House, the clerks&#039; office, Brigham Young&#039;s office) in Salt Lake City, you might be scratching your head and wondering where in any of them is a fireplace that could be described as &quot;mastodonic&quot; -- you&#039;d know that the rooms in those buildings, especially the offices, are very small, and without large fireplaces. Knowing something of the geography of Utah, the reference to &quot;huge logs&quot; in that &quot;roaring fire&quot; might also raise suspicions.

Other details -- like Brigham&#039;s age -- 82?? -- don&#039;t hold up, either.

So regretfully, much as I like to collect travelers&#039; accounts of prominent people visiting the 19th century Mormons, I have to relegate this one to the entirely fictional category.

The real question, I suppose, is why the reporter would bother to make up such a report?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, that was easy, Mark. You&#8217;re drafted as my historical companion for having so easily ruled out the possibility that this account was anything like an accurate report!</p>
<p>The timing just doesn&#8217;t pan out. Henry died in 1873. Brigham died in 1877; Grant visited Utah in 1876 &#8212; so Mark is right that, had the visit occurred as reported, it would have to have been during the winter of 1876-77, after Henry&#8217;s death.</p>
<p>Grant is right about the absurdity of the account of reaching Salt Lake Valley.</p>
<p>Some other things that readers might have considered in evaluating the likelihood that this was a more-or-less truthful report, even if garbled in its details:</p>
<p>Can you find any confirming evidence that Henry Troemner actually went out to San Francisco?  (I couldn&#8217;t. Several Googled sources say he provided the scales for the Mint there, but I couldn&#8217;t find any indication that he&#8217;d ever been called out to test or seal them.)</p>
<p>Given the conditions of transcontinental travel in 1876, how likely is it that a man of Henry&#8217;s age would have made such a trip? </p>
<p>Is there any evidence from Utah sources that Henry was there?  You might have searched &#8212; vainly &#8212; the online Utah newspapers at DigitalNewspapers.org;  if you had access, you might also have searched the index to the Journal History in the Church History Library (Henry isn&#8217;t listed there). Neither absence would definitively prove he *wasn&#8217;t* there, but a note in either place would have definitively proved that he *had* come.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve ever visited the Brigham Young properties (the Beehive House, the Lion House, the clerks&#8217; office, Brigham Young&#8217;s office) in Salt Lake City, you might be scratching your head and wondering where in any of them is a fireplace that could be described as &#8220;mastodonic&#8221; &#8212; you&#8217;d know that the rooms in those buildings, especially the offices, are very small, and without large fireplaces. Knowing something of the geography of Utah, the reference to &#8220;huge logs&#8221; in that &#8220;roaring fire&#8221; might also raise suspicions.</p>
<p>Other details &#8212; like Brigham&#8217;s age &#8212; 82?? &#8212; don&#8217;t hold up, either.</p>
<p>So regretfully, much as I like to collect travelers&#8217; accounts of prominent people visiting the 19th century Mormons, I have to relegate this one to the entirely fictional category.</p>
<p>The real question, I suppose, is why the reporter would bother to make up such a report?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150580</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15147#comment-150580</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Henry Troemner had two sons who shared the middle name Henry, William Henry, 1839-1864, and Franklin Henry, 1856-1892.  The elder is obviously not the man, and the younger seems to young to have been sent to San Francisco to inspect the balances at the mint there in 1876 or 1877.  Unless he went as his father&#039;s traveling companion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Henry Troemner had two sons who shared the middle name Henry, William Henry, 1839-1864, and Franklin Henry, 1856-1892.  The elder is obviously not the man, and the younger seems to young to have been sent to San Francisco to inspect the balances at the mint there in 1876 or 1877.  Unless he went as his father&#8217;s traveling companion.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150576</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 16:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15147#comment-150576</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Grant, that&#039;s a novel version of the founding history, isn&#039;t it?  I&#039;m not going to correct errors -- there aren&#039;t any errors in an exercise like this. This is meant only to illustrate some of the problems that face a historian in even a casual blogging situation, and to give readers who might want to try it an excuse to see how they might go about doing some internet research and perhaps discover some new Mormon history.

That&#039;s the big red flag, isn&#039;t it Mark?!  But some of the sources found on Google said that the business was taken over by Troemner&#039;s sons (three of them, I think it was), so consider whether Henry-the-founder might have had a son Henry, Jr. who was active in the business in 1887.  Maybe the reporter was sloppy and confused the original Henry with a later one. Could the story still be true, if that confusion were corrected?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Grant, that&#8217;s a novel version of the founding history, isn&#8217;t it?  I&#8217;m not going to correct errors &#8212; there aren&#8217;t any errors in an exercise like this. This is meant only to illustrate some of the problems that face a historian in even a casual blogging situation, and to give readers who might want to try it an excuse to see how they might go about doing some internet research and perhaps discover some new Mormon history.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the big red flag, isn&#8217;t it Mark?!  But some of the sources found on Google said that the business was taken over by Troemner&#8217;s sons (three of them, I think it was), so consider whether Henry-the-founder might have had a son Henry, Jr. who was active in the business in 1887.  Maybe the reporter was sloppy and confused the original Henry with a later one. Could the story still be true, if that confusion were corrected?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150555</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 15:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15147#comment-150555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Since Henry Troemner died in 1873, it would have been hard for the reporter to have run into him in September of 1887.  But, the Troemner company did have offices at 710 Market Street, beginning in 1858.  The company built a factory at the corner of 22nd and Master Streets in 1862, but kept their office on Market Street.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since Henry Troemner died in 1873, it would have been hard for the reporter to have run into him in September of 1887.  But, the Troemner company did have offices at 710 Market Street, beginning in 1858.  The company built a factory at the corner of 22nd and Master Streets in 1862, but kept their office on Market Street.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/11/07/think-like-a-historian-henry-troemner-and-brigham-young/comment-page-1/#comment-150466</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2011 13:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=15147#comment-150466</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, off the cuff without much research as I&#039;m in a rush and have some work demands on me, the story of the pioneer arrival has it&#039;s problems as Brigham was not in an ox-cart, and they didn&#039;t arrive or plow on a Sunday! He was also a straight-line sort of guy so I doubt the story about plowing in circles.

Also, I&#039;m pretty sure he met with U.S. President Grant when the latter came on his Salt Lake City visit. In fact, one of my favorite stories I seem to recall (hopefully accurately) is President Grant&#039;s carriage ride around the city with all the children lining the streets waiving flags. Pres. Grant turned to someone and asked, &quot;Whose children are these?&quot; The response, &quot;Why, Mormon children, Sir.&quot; after a long pause, Grant said something to the effect of, &quot;I have been greatly deceived.&quot;

Feel free to correct my historical errors, Ardis. I won&#039;t be offended. I was named for the &quot;other&quot; President Grant. (Although, I can&#039;t help but like the U.S. one too).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, off the cuff without much research as I&#8217;m in a rush and have some work demands on me, the story of the pioneer arrival has it&#8217;s problems as Brigham was not in an ox-cart, and they didn&#8217;t arrive or plow on a Sunday! He was also a straight-line sort of guy so I doubt the story about plowing in circles.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;m pretty sure he met with U.S. President Grant when the latter came on his Salt Lake City visit. In fact, one of my favorite stories I seem to recall (hopefully accurately) is President Grant&#8217;s carriage ride around the city with all the children lining the streets waiving flags. Pres. Grant turned to someone and asked, &#8220;Whose children are these?&#8221; The response, &#8220;Why, Mormon children, Sir.&#8221; after a long pause, Grant said something to the effect of, &#8220;I have been greatly deceived.&#8221;</p>
<p>Feel free to correct my historical errors, Ardis. I won&#8217;t be offended. I was named for the &#8220;other&#8221; President Grant. (Although, I can&#8217;t help but like the U.S. one too).</p>
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