<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Underground &#8220;Doctrines&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 25 May 2013 06:15:15 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83400</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2011 19:06:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83400</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ross Noble, you&#039;re living proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I&#039;ve had similar experiences to yours.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ross Noble, you&#8217;re living proof that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I&#8217;ve had similar experiences to yours.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ross noble</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83304</link>
		<dc:creator>ross noble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Aug 2011 00:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83304</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I come from a long line of membership in the church and have been fed doctrine at the knee of great scriptural giants.  I also have searched the scriptures and looked for worthwhile things &quot;out of the best books&quot; for most of my 50+ years.  I do not find the conference talks to be boring, tepid, or uninspiring.  On some occasions I will be several weeks getting deeper understanding of doctrines taught.
In one 2.5 years series of 7 talks in conference there was taught a more detailed, greater, and higher understanding of a single principle of learning by three separate apostles and a general Sunday school president.  In the middle of this series, there was an article in the January Ensign which supported and repeated that same principle.  Each conference/session another speaker added to what had been taught before, even as each speech stood alone.  This was done thru stories, iterations, alliterations, inferences and references.  My point is, if it seems that it is all as we have heard it before, and/or there is no new revelation, we might consider that the brethren, like the Savior, are teaching for all people wherever they be in knowledge and spirituality.  There is always deeper meaning available to strengthen, support, and inspire our lives.  These &quot;speculative&quot; doctrines are being used and repeated as a form of scripture study; their use may be and probably is a function of desiring recognition for innovative things.  It behooves us to return to the scriptures and conference talks instead of spending our time seeking out obscure or even mysterious &quot;prior&quot; doctrines whether they be true or false.  I guarantee we will achieve a much better understanding of the principle of revelation if we do.

    To Ardis E. Parshall---
I applaud your understanding of your role as a gospel doctrine teacher.  You understand that your responsibility is to &quot;teach so no one can misunderstand&quot; and that your role is not confined to the classroom.  As a &quot;storied&quot; role model in your ward you must act at all times to teach and reinforce the plain and precious gospel truths even as you seek greater understanding in your personal and/or companion study.  That is a message that we seek to define and impart in our Stake.  As Elder Holland has said about teaching in the church, it does not take a gospel scholar but just someone intent on obtaining and teaching by the Spirit.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I come from a long line of membership in the church and have been fed doctrine at the knee of great scriptural giants.  I also have searched the scriptures and looked for worthwhile things &#8220;out of the best books&#8221; for most of my 50+ years.  I do not find the conference talks to be boring, tepid, or uninspiring.  On some occasions I will be several weeks getting deeper understanding of doctrines taught.<br />
In one 2.5 years series of 7 talks in conference there was taught a more detailed, greater, and higher understanding of a single principle of learning by three separate apostles and a general Sunday school president.  In the middle of this series, there was an article in the January Ensign which supported and repeated that same principle.  Each conference/session another speaker added to what had been taught before, even as each speech stood alone.  This was done thru stories, iterations, alliterations, inferences and references.  My point is, if it seems that it is all as we have heard it before, and/or there is no new revelation, we might consider that the brethren, like the Savior, are teaching for all people wherever they be in knowledge and spirituality.  There is always deeper meaning available to strengthen, support, and inspire our lives.  These &#8220;speculative&#8221; doctrines are being used and repeated as a form of scripture study; their use may be and probably is a function of desiring recognition for innovative things.  It behooves us to return to the scriptures and conference talks instead of spending our time seeking out obscure or even mysterious &#8220;prior&#8221; doctrines whether they be true or false.  I guarantee we will achieve a much better understanding of the principle of revelation if we do.</p>
<p>    To Ardis E. Parshall&#8212;<br />
I applaud your understanding of your role as a gospel doctrine teacher.  You understand that your responsibility is to &#8220;teach so no one can misunderstand&#8221; and that your role is not confined to the classroom.  As a &#8220;storied&#8221; role model in your ward you must act at all times to teach and reinforce the plain and precious gospel truths even as you seek greater understanding in your personal and/or companion study.  That is a message that we seek to define and impart in our Stake.  As Elder Holland has said about teaching in the church, it does not take a gospel scholar but just someone intent on obtaining and teaching by the Spirit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83104</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83104</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[maximus, one of the key points in the original post, as well as in many comments, is precisely that the cited examples were NOT originally presented as revelation, but quite frankly and openly as logical, rational, reasoning. Orson Pratt, for example, wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus -- such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them -- namely, Mary Magdalene. Now it would be natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were His wives&lt;/blockquote&gt;

He lays out his thought process, he appeals to common sense with his &quot;it would be natural,&quot; he admits that he is filling in gaps in an incomplete record, he uses the subjunctive mode, and nowhere does he say that the Spirit testified to him, or that he received a revelation, or that he learned this idea from the president of the church, the only man authorized to announce new doctrine (although an apostle, he himself did not have that right). It&#039;s speculation, and he is quite open about that.

Other people repeated this idea, and they weren&#039;t always careful to mention the aspect of human reason that was involved, and so other, lesser, sensation-hungry, lazy, mystery-seeking (or any other word suggested in the comments to explain why people do this) folks taught it -- incorrectly, without justification -- as doctrine. That doesn&#039;t make it doctrine, as Researcher and Ben S so clearly said.

The same could be said about any of the other speculations I used as examples. There is no justification for them -- no authority in scripture, no claim of revelation -- nothing more than human reasoning without sufficient data to consider the case proven. I call that speculation.

Church leaders -- even prophets -- don&#039;t &quot;lose their authority in the church&quot; even when or if they repeat obscure and incorrect/unsupported bits of lore they heard from the same sources we all heard them from. Nor do they &quot;lose their authority&quot; because you or I mistakenly believe that a speculation was presented as revelation. Nor do they &quot;lose their authority in the church&quot; when they themselves originate a new speculation. To the best of my knowledge, no prophet has ever taught any of my examples accompanied by a claim of revelation. Prophets are not infallible, especially when they&#039;re exercising human reason rather than conveying divine revelation. They don&#039;t lose their authority if they reason beyond the evidence, or even if they reason incorrectly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>maximus, one of the key points in the original post, as well as in many comments, is precisely that the cited examples were NOT originally presented as revelation, but quite frankly and openly as logical, rational, reasoning. Orson Pratt, for example, wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus &#8212; such as Mary, and Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much; and when He arose from the dead, instead of showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them &#8212; namely, Mary Magdalene. Now it would be natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these beloved women were His wives</p></blockquote>
<p>He lays out his thought process, he appeals to common sense with his &#8220;it would be natural,&#8221; he admits that he is filling in gaps in an incomplete record, he uses the subjunctive mode, and nowhere does he say that the Spirit testified to him, or that he received a revelation, or that he learned this idea from the president of the church, the only man authorized to announce new doctrine (although an apostle, he himself did not have that right). It&#8217;s speculation, and he is quite open about that.</p>
<p>Other people repeated this idea, and they weren&#8217;t always careful to mention the aspect of human reason that was involved, and so other, lesser, sensation-hungry, lazy, mystery-seeking (or any other word suggested in the comments to explain why people do this) folks taught it &#8212; incorrectly, without justification &#8212; as doctrine. That doesn&#8217;t make it doctrine, as Researcher and Ben S so clearly said.</p>
<p>The same could be said about any of the other speculations I used as examples. There is no justification for them &#8212; no authority in scripture, no claim of revelation &#8212; nothing more than human reasoning without sufficient data to consider the case proven. I call that speculation.</p>
<p>Church leaders &#8212; even prophets &#8212; don&#8217;t &#8220;lose their authority in the church&#8221; even when or if they repeat obscure and incorrect/unsupported bits of lore they heard from the same sources we all heard them from. Nor do they &#8220;lose their authority&#8221; because you or I mistakenly believe that a speculation was presented as revelation. Nor do they &#8220;lose their authority in the church&#8221; when they themselves originate a new speculation. To the best of my knowledge, no prophet has ever taught any of my examples accompanied by a claim of revelation. Prophets are not infallible, especially when they&#8217;re exercising human reason rather than conveying divine revelation. They don&#8217;t lose their authority if they reason beyond the evidence, or even if they reason incorrectly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: maximus</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83096</link>
		<dc:creator>maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83096</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@112,113

Except that sometimes what we are labeling as speculation was once taught _by Prophets as truth, as revelation.  The &quot;speculation&quot; label is a nice story to sweep some of the eccentricities of early Mormon teaching under the rug, but it&#039;s a little dishonest.  If you can disregard a Prophet who is saying this is Truth, even revelation, as simply &quot;speculating&quot;, then the Prophets loses his authority in the church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@112,113</p>
<p>Except that sometimes what we are labeling as speculation was once taught _by Prophets as truth, as revelation.  The &#8220;speculation&#8221; label is a nice story to sweep some of the eccentricities of early Mormon teaching under the rug, but it&#8217;s a little dishonest.  If you can disregard a Prophet who is saying this is Truth, even revelation, as simply &#8220;speculating&#8221;, then the Prophets loses his authority in the church.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben S</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83093</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 17:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83093</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;A thing does not become true or become more true by saying it loudly or by saying it repeatedly.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

True. 

&quot;Dogmatic assertions do not take the place of revelation...

Your brethren, (Signed) JOSEPH F. SMITH, ANTHON H. LUND, CHARLES W. PENROSE. First Presidency. &quot;
-(James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75], 4:264-65.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>A thing does not become true or become more true by saying it loudly or by saying it repeatedly.</p></blockquote>
<p>True. </p>
<p>&#8220;Dogmatic assertions do not take the place of revelation&#8230;</p>
<p>Your brethren, (Signed) JOSEPH F. SMITH, ANTHON H. LUND, CHARLES W. PENROSE. First Presidency. &#8221;<br />
-(James R. Clark, comp., Messages of the First Presidency of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 6 vols. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965-75], 4:264-65.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Researcher</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83062</link>
		<dc:creator>Researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83062</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;they were taught a lot more forcefully than a mere offhand speculative aside&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Just because a thing is taught with force doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s true. Force has little to do with truth. A thing does not become true or become more true by saying it loudly or by saying it repeatedly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>they were taught a lot more forcefully than a mere offhand speculative aside</p></blockquote>
<p>Just because a thing is taught with force doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s true. Force has little to do with truth. A thing does not become true or become more true by saying it loudly or by saying it repeatedly.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: maximus</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-83035</link>
		<dc:creator>maximus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 09:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-83035</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sure, these things are not doctrine.  But that doesn&#039;t mean that they (some of them) aren&#039;t truth.  Reading D&amp;C and various other writings of Joseph Smith, I see a hunger and a passion for truth that we, as a culture, sometimes fall short of.  Hence, we have big long threads we discuss doctrine with nary a mention of what is truth, which is somewhat amiss, imho, given that, there is certainly a subset of those things that are doctrine that are not truth, given that there were doctrines of yore that are considered untruth today.   

Personally, I find the concept that just because it isn&#039;t taught in General Conference, etc... today that it is no longer doctrine more than a little bit disingenuous.  Sure, there are topics that were pure speculation at the time.  But, there are also topics that are considered non-doctrinal today that were once taught and considered as pure doctrinal truth by previous prophets.  There are also topics that were emphatically taught as plain and precious doctrinal truths by past prophets that are no longer mentioned today.  

Yes, there certainly is some human nonsense in that category (race is a good example).  However, as much as we may wish it otherwise, some of what is considered speculation today was once taught as doctrine; saying that earlier comments on race were merely speculative understates the reality that they were taught a lot more forcefully than a mere offhand speculative aside.   

On a slightly different note, given that we base so much of our lives and doctrines around what some prophet said 6,000 years ago; I think we need to have a higher standard of discarding concepts  testified again and again by a prophet 100 years ago just because it didn&#039;t make the cut at recent general conferences.  How many general conferences until a doctrine ages out into the category of historical speculation?  If word of wisdom doesn&#039;t make the cut at the upcoming conference, do I get a pass to go get drunk?          

Here&#039;s a consideration--if history repeats itself, then it will be interesting to see what concepts in your mentioned gospel doctrine lesson may very well be whispered in the hallway in hushed tones after a future lesson 100 years ago when some of today&#039;s doctrines become historical artifacts.  

Sure, when we&#039;re teaching Sunday School or giving a talk, we should confine ourselves to topics that are considered good, clean, kosher doctrine.  But, I very much reject the idea that we shouldn&#039;t be open in our private discussions between church members.  If nothing else, it helps us check ourselves and each other in our private understandings.  Shared, open discussions of our beliefs and understandings drive us more towards doctrinal unity than eschewing such things in favor of only discussing &quot;correlated&quot; topics--anyone who takes the counsel of &quot;search, ponder, and pray&quot; will arrive at ideas, some of which are more true than others.  Relegating them to some &quot;personal truth&quot; realm just means that half-truths will fester in their minds unchecked.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, these things are not doctrine.  But that doesn&#8217;t mean that they (some of them) aren&#8217;t truth.  Reading D&amp;C and various other writings of Joseph Smith, I see a hunger and a passion for truth that we, as a culture, sometimes fall short of.  Hence, we have big long threads we discuss doctrine with nary a mention of what is truth, which is somewhat amiss, imho, given that, there is certainly a subset of those things that are doctrine that are not truth, given that there were doctrines of yore that are considered untruth today.   </p>
<p>Personally, I find the concept that just because it isn&#8217;t taught in General Conference, etc&#8230; today that it is no longer doctrine more than a little bit disingenuous.  Sure, there are topics that were pure speculation at the time.  But, there are also topics that are considered non-doctrinal today that were once taught and considered as pure doctrinal truth by previous prophets.  There are also topics that were emphatically taught as plain and precious doctrinal truths by past prophets that are no longer mentioned today.  </p>
<p>Yes, there certainly is some human nonsense in that category (race is a good example).  However, as much as we may wish it otherwise, some of what is considered speculation today was once taught as doctrine; saying that earlier comments on race were merely speculative understates the reality that they were taught a lot more forcefully than a mere offhand speculative aside.   </p>
<p>On a slightly different note, given that we base so much of our lives and doctrines around what some prophet said 6,000 years ago; I think we need to have a higher standard of discarding concepts  testified again and again by a prophet 100 years ago just because it didn&#8217;t make the cut at recent general conferences.  How many general conferences until a doctrine ages out into the category of historical speculation?  If word of wisdom doesn&#8217;t make the cut at the upcoming conference, do I get a pass to go get drunk?          </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a consideration&#8211;if history repeats itself, then it will be interesting to see what concepts in your mentioned gospel doctrine lesson may very well be whispered in the hallway in hushed tones after a future lesson 100 years ago when some of today&#8217;s doctrines become historical artifacts.  </p>
<p>Sure, when we&#8217;re teaching Sunday School or giving a talk, we should confine ourselves to topics that are considered good, clean, kosher doctrine.  But, I very much reject the idea that we shouldn&#8217;t be open in our private discussions between church members.  If nothing else, it helps us check ourselves and each other in our private understandings.  Shared, open discussions of our beliefs and understandings drive us more towards doctrinal unity than eschewing such things in favor of only discussing &#8220;correlated&#8221; topics&#8211;anyone who takes the counsel of &#8220;search, ponder, and pray&#8221; will arrive at ideas, some of which are more true than others.  Relegating them to some &#8220;personal truth&#8221; realm just means that half-truths will fester in their minds unchecked.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bookslinger</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-82991</link>
		<dc:creator>Bookslinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Aug 2011 00:29:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-82991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speculation, thy name is Bloggernacle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speculation, thy name is Bloggernacle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ji</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-82926</link>
		<dc:creator>ji</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-82926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A matter that is clearly doctrinal to one person (see no. 92) might be speculative by another (me).  

Thanks, Steve (no. 108).  And thanks again to you, Ardis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A matter that is clearly doctrinal to one person (see no. 92) might be speculative by another (me).  </p>
<p>Thanks, Steve (no. 108).  And thanks again to you, Ardis.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Evans</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/08/16/underground-doctrines/comment-page-3/#comment-82877</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 06:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=13397#comment-82877</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I&#039;m experiencing the summer doldrums myself, I have to say that this was a fascinating post and a top-notch discussion, Ardis.  Thank you.  I think it would be an interesting cultural analysis to look at why we tend to look for such things, &quot;beyond the mark&quot; as it were, considering these things to be higher knowledge.  Perhaps it stems from hierarchical ordinance structures, in which sacred things and hidden things are made known to us. Perhaps it&#039;s just human desire and pride.

I guess I don&#039;t mean to demean revelations and the unveiling of God&#039;s mind to us through the Restoration, but as I get older I have the sneaking suspicion that our desire for deep doctrine can cloud our ability to savor simple truths.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I&#8217;m experiencing the summer doldrums myself, I have to say that this was a fascinating post and a top-notch discussion, Ardis.  Thank you.  I think it would be an interesting cultural analysis to look at why we tend to look for such things, &#8220;beyond the mark&#8221; as it were, considering these things to be higher knowledge.  Perhaps it stems from hierarchical ordinance structures, in which sacred things and hidden things are made known to us. Perhaps it&#8217;s just human desire and pride.</p>
<p>I guess I don&#8217;t mean to demean revelations and the unveiling of God&#8217;s mind to us through the Restoration, but as I get older I have the sneaking suspicion that our desire for deep doctrine can cloud our ability to savor simple truths.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
