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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;Joseph Smith&#8217;s Last Dream&#8221;: Evaluation &#8212; UPDATED</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Seth Adam Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74861</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Adam Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Jul 2011 00:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74861</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ardis,

You&#039;ve done a wonderful job--both in your initial evaluation and in your subsequent updates. You&#039;ve gone above and beyond even what I had hoped. Thank you for all that you&#039;ve done on my behalf. I was, and continue to be, a big supporter of what you do.

-Seth]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis,</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve done a wonderful job&#8211;both in your initial evaluation and in your subsequent updates. You&#8217;ve gone above and beyond even what I had hoped. Thank you for all that you&#8217;ve done on my behalf. I was, and continue to be, a big supporter of what you do.</p>
<p>-Seth</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74833</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 20:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seth, I&#039;ve added your link to the top of both this post and the follow-up &quot;Addendum&quot; post, and I&#039;ve republished this with the &quot;UPDATE&quot; signal so that it will appear at the top of Keepa&#039;s page this afternoon and appear again on the aggregators, in an effort to draw attention to your biography of Paul Thomas Smith. 

Please let me repeat again that I meant no disrespect to Brother Smith through my unfamiliarity with his career until a week ago, or by my noting that &quot;Church Historian&quot; was a formal title belonging to someone else. I realize he did not apply that title to himself.

Also, I&#039;d like you to know that more than one reader contacted me privately, appreciating the historical evaluation of Phelps&#039; record, but also saying that they would not comment publicly for fear that saying anything -- even something academic about Phelps or historical practices -- might be misinterpreted as reflecting badly in some way on Brother Smith. Their friendship with and respect for Brother Smith meant too much to risk misunderstanding. He should know how loyal some of his former students are!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, I&#8217;ve added your link to the top of both this post and the follow-up &#8220;Addendum&#8221; post, and I&#8217;ve republished this with the &#8220;UPDATE&#8221; signal so that it will appear at the top of Keepa&#8217;s page this afternoon and appear again on the aggregators, in an effort to draw attention to your biography of Paul Thomas Smith. </p>
<p>Please let me repeat again that I meant no disrespect to Brother Smith through my unfamiliarity with his career until a week ago, or by my noting that &#8220;Church Historian&#8221; was a formal title belonging to someone else. I realize he did not apply that title to himself.</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;d like you to know that more than one reader contacted me privately, appreciating the historical evaluation of Phelps&#8217; record, but also saying that they would not comment publicly for fear that saying anything &#8212; even something academic about Phelps or historical practices &#8212; might be misinterpreted as reflecting badly in some way on Brother Smith. Their friendship with and respect for Brother Smith meant too much to risk misunderstanding. He should know how loyal some of his former students are!</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Adam Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74825</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Adam Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74825</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ardis,

I&#039;ve made a few (slight) edits to my blog post (including some of the History of the Church sources). I think I&#039;ll do a separate post which reconstructs the timeline using historical sources.

Apart from that, I wrote a post on Paul Thomas Smith&#039;s credentials. If I could ask a small favor, it would be to include the link to it somewhere within this blog post you&#039;ve written. He was kind enough to do the interview and I did him a disservice by giving him the wrong title in the video. http://sethadamsmith.blogspot.com/2011/06/paul-thomas-smith.html

Anyway, hope you&#039;re doing well. Thanks for sending me the email with all of the stories! I&#039;m excited to check them out!

-Seth

Post Script - I have a video of &quot;Emma Smith&#039;s Last Dream&quot; coming out next week. I&#039;ll be sure to do my homework on the video and on the article. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve made a few (slight) edits to my blog post (including some of the History of the Church sources). I think I&#8217;ll do a separate post which reconstructs the timeline using historical sources.</p>
<p>Apart from that, I wrote a post on Paul Thomas Smith&#8217;s credentials. If I could ask a small favor, it would be to include the link to it somewhere within this blog post you&#8217;ve written. He was kind enough to do the interview and I did him a disservice by giving him the wrong title in the video. <a href="http://sethadamsmith.blogspot.com/2011/06/paul-thomas-smith.html" rel="nofollow">http://sethadamsmith.blogspot.com/2011/06/paul-thomas-smith.html</a></p>
<p>Anyway, hope you&#8217;re doing well. Thanks for sending me the email with all of the stories! I&#8217;m excited to check them out!</p>
<p>-Seth</p>
<p>Post Script &#8211; I have a video of &#8220;Emma Smith&#8217;s Last Dream&#8221; coming out next week. I&#8217;ll be sure to do my homework on the video and on the article. <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74798</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74798</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are always an inspiration to me, Mark, even when you leave me speechless. Keep up the good work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are always an inspiration to me, Mark, even when you leave me speechless. Keep up the good work.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74794</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 17:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I spent a delightful day in Ulm in summer 1970, including some time watching a festival on the  Danube, the high point of which was the inspiring &quot;Fischerstechen&quot;--sort of a cross between jousting and the Henley Regatta--and then a climb to the top of the tower of the Cathedral, including passing the bells just as they began their evening concert.

[Was that a threadjack?  I did include &quot;inspiring&quot; just to try to keep it close.]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I spent a delightful day in Ulm in summer 1970, including some time watching a festival on the  Danube, the high point of which was the inspiring &#8220;Fischerstechen&#8221;&#8211;sort of a cross between jousting and the Henley Regatta&#8211;and then a climb to the top of the tower of the Cathedral, including passing the bells just as they began their evening concert.</p>
<p>[Was that a threadjack?  I did include "inspiring" just to try to keep it close.]</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74788</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Tatiana. I love your metaphor!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Tatiana. I love your metaphor!</p>
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		<title>By: Tatiana</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74782</link>
		<dc:creator>Tatiana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Jun 2011 16:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Ardis!  When I saw the video, my &quot;urban legend meter&quot; went off.  The first thing I thought was it sounded like it was invented.  It just seemed too pat, or something.  I appreciate your efforts in giving us more context for the account. I&#039;m also glad for the opportunity to double-check the calibration on my ULM, and happy to see it&#039;s in full working order.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Ardis!  When I saw the video, my &#8220;urban legend meter&#8221; went off.  The first thing I thought was it sounded like it was invented.  It just seemed too pat, or something.  I appreciate your efforts in giving us more context for the account. I&#8217;m also glad for the opportunity to double-check the calibration on my ULM, and happy to see it&#8217;s in full working order.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74554</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 04:06:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott: You have misunderstood both of these posts from top to bottom.

This was never — NEVER — about maligning Seth (or Phelps) or about “casting doubt” over the dream. I did not set out to prove the dream a fake; I set out to test its credibility, and that is what you completely misunderstand. This was a study in how historians check the background and context of a “new” document to estimate its credibility before weaving it into previously accepted history. It’s not so different from what lawyers do with a witness in determining his credibility before basing their case on his testimony.

One of the questions — not doubts, but questions — that a historian asks is “was this person in the right place at the right time to have witnessed these events?” If he was there, that’s a point toward his credibility. If he was not there, then he is a false witness and his testimony is discounted.

Nothing I wrote has the effect you claim — not to any critical reader. With the materials I had at hand, I was able to show that Phelps was at the right place at almost the right time, and could possibly have been at the right place at exactly the right time, although I did not have the materials on hand to demonstrate that conclusively. I invited readers to help fill in the chronology if they knew of relevant sources. Justin found those sources. That historical test — a perfectly normal, common, essential test, by the way — came out fully in favor of Phelps, and I not only acknowledged that, but I also pointed out to Seth that he had not (as of early this morning, at least) taken full advantage of that evidence by drawing attention to it on his blog.

There is no reason to remove that discussion from the first post and every reason to preserve it. The discussion addresses a relevant historical question, an obvious historical test. Deleting the discussion would only ignore and leave open a question that had to be examined.

I can hardly believe anyone with training or practice in history, as you claim for yourself, could be so ignorant of historical investigation that you can’t appreciate the necessity for examining such an obvious matter — was the witness where he claimed to be when he claimed to be? Only the most incompetent of historians, like the most incompetent of lawyers, would fail to ask that question.

Go away. You’re not bright enough to participate at Keepa, and no future comments of yours will be posted.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott: You have misunderstood both of these posts from top to bottom.</p>
<p>This was never — NEVER — about maligning Seth (or Phelps) or about “casting doubt” over the dream. I did not set out to prove the dream a fake; I set out to test its credibility, and that is what you completely misunderstand. This was a study in how historians check the background and context of a “new” document to estimate its credibility before weaving it into previously accepted history. It’s not so different from what lawyers do with a witness in determining his credibility before basing their case on his testimony.</p>
<p>One of the questions — not doubts, but questions — that a historian asks is “was this person in the right place at the right time to have witnessed these events?” If he was there, that’s a point toward his credibility. If he was not there, then he is a false witness and his testimony is discounted.</p>
<p>Nothing I wrote has the effect you claim — not to any critical reader. With the materials I had at hand, I was able to show that Phelps was at the right place at almost the right time, and could possibly have been at the right place at exactly the right time, although I did not have the materials on hand to demonstrate that conclusively. I invited readers to help fill in the chronology if they knew of relevant sources. Justin found those sources. That historical test — a perfectly normal, common, essential test, by the way — came out fully in favor of Phelps, and I not only acknowledged that, but I also pointed out to Seth that he had not (as of early this morning, at least) taken full advantage of that evidence by drawing attention to it on his blog.</p>
<p>There is no reason to remove that discussion from the first post and every reason to preserve it. The discussion addresses a relevant historical question, an obvious historical test. Deleting the discussion would only ignore and leave open a question that had to be examined.</p>
<p>I can hardly believe anyone with training or practice in history, as you claim for yourself, could be so ignorant of historical investigation that you can’t appreciate the necessity for examining such an obvious matter — was the witness where he claimed to be when he claimed to be? Only the most incompetent of historians, like the most incompetent of lawyers, would fail to ask that question.</p>
<p>Go away. You’re not bright enough to participate at Keepa, and no future comments of yours will be posted.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74487</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 19:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ardis, after Justin&#039;s comments I hope you are seriously considering removing the three paragraphs where you call into question whether Phelps was even at the right place or right time to hear the dream. That is one of the biggest lynch pins of doubt that you cast on the whole story. I understand a person can&#039;t recall all copies of newspapers or magazine articles, but you can very easily make an edit to a digital article. As a graduate of history, if I had seriously called into doubt something that I honestly should have researched better than trusting a book index, then I would and should remove it. To leave a historical path you can place a comment in its place that it was removed due to greater knowledge that you had obtained afterwards. Leaving it out there is in my opinion irresponsible and misleading. Most people will read the entire 5 screens of your article but not all 12 screens of comments. Do us a favor and show you are as willing as Seth to admit and reconcile your errors.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis, after Justin&#8217;s comments I hope you are seriously considering removing the three paragraphs where you call into question whether Phelps was even at the right place or right time to hear the dream. That is one of the biggest lynch pins of doubt that you cast on the whole story. I understand a person can&#8217;t recall all copies of newspapers or magazine articles, but you can very easily make an edit to a digital article. As a graduate of history, if I had seriously called into doubt something that I honestly should have researched better than trusting a book index, then I would and should remove it. To leave a historical path you can place a comment in its place that it was removed due to greater knowledge that you had obtained afterwards. Leaving it out there is in my opinion irresponsible and misleading. Most people will read the entire 5 screens of your article but not all 12 screens of comments. Do us a favor and show you are as willing as Seth to admit and reconcile your errors.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Adam Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/06/30/joseph-smiths-last-dream-evaluation/comment-page-2/#comment-74442</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Adam Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=12754#comment-74442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Awesome! Thanks, Ardis. I made a few more edits to my blog post evaluating the dream: I added a link to your blog post about properly evaluating it, added a section on &quot;Controversy&quot; and put large quotes of yours in the article. I also rounded it off with a better conclusion.

I also added my conclusion to the &#039;video info&#039; section and added a video annotation to the video itself (at the end) strongly encouraging people to read about the historical context and controversy surrounding this account by clicking on the links provided in the &#039;video info&#039; section.

I&#039;ve added video annotations to the Paul Thomas Smith videos to serve as disclaimers and to clarify his position and I&#039;m going through my blog to make sure that the references there are correct.

All in all, I haven&#039;t slept too much...but I&#039;m feeling a lot better knowing that I&#039;m getting things right. I&#039;ve felt a little like a first grader showing off his first science project...I&#039;ve tried my hardest to make it my best work, but I&#039;ve fallen short in many ways.

Thank you (and Jared T from Juvenile Instructor) for your help and patience and willingness to work with me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome! Thanks, Ardis. I made a few more edits to my blog post evaluating the dream: I added a link to your blog post about properly evaluating it, added a section on &#8220;Controversy&#8221; and put large quotes of yours in the article. I also rounded it off with a better conclusion.</p>
<p>I also added my conclusion to the &#8216;video info&#8217; section and added a video annotation to the video itself (at the end) strongly encouraging people to read about the historical context and controversy surrounding this account by clicking on the links provided in the &#8216;video info&#8217; section.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve added video annotations to the Paul Thomas Smith videos to serve as disclaimers and to clarify his position and I&#8217;m going through my blog to make sure that the references there are correct.</p>
<p>All in all, I haven&#8217;t slept too much&#8230;but I&#8217;m feeling a lot better knowing that I&#8217;m getting things right. I&#8217;ve felt a little like a first grader showing off his first science project&#8230;I&#8217;ve tried my hardest to make it my best work, but I&#8217;ve fallen short in many ways.</p>
<p>Thank you (and Jared T from Juvenile Instructor) for your help and patience and willingness to work with me.</p>
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