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	<title>Comments on: Attitudes and Manners: Discussion 4 &#8212; Courtesy in Church</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67880</link>
		<dc:creator>David B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 18:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67880</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ardis: I&#8217;m thinking a big scarlet&#160;&lt;b&gt;S&lt;/b&gt; (for &lt;i&gt;silence&lt;/i&gt;) on your hat would do it.&#160;:)

More seirously, i think that just saying something like &#8220;It&#8217;s Ardis—but sorry, i really need some time to think right now.&#8221;

I have to say, though, that grabbing someone&#8217;s shoulder to get their attention (as you described) seems a bit, well, off to me. For people that abrupt, there may be nothing you can do. Perhaps have your open scriptures on your lap, whether or not you&#8217;re actually reading them? If you&#8217;re engaged in something that&#8217;s &lt;b&gt;visibly&lt;/b&gt; an activity, you may have more luck.

To expand slightly on what i said earlier, though, &lt;i&gt;reverence&lt;/i&gt; can mean a lot of different things to different people. For some, it&#8217;s a deeply and profoundly individual act. For me, yeah, reverence can be an individual thing, but it&#8217;s at its strongest when it&#8217;s a communal experience. Of course, i don&#8217;t know that i&#8217;m with Clark in defining &lt;i&gt;reverence&lt;/i&gt; as &#8220;a deep respect for&#8221;—i see it as being something more like &#8220;worshipfulness&#8221;. Of course, worshipfulness itself means different things to different people, so we&#8217;re back at the beginning… (And even if we accept Clark&#8217;s definition, we run into the problem of trying to balance some people&#8217;s need for silence with others&#8217; need for community.)

Oh—and another voice in favor of cry rooms here. I know that they&#8217;ve fallen out way of fashion in religious architecture, but anytime i&#8217;ve been to weddings and funerals with my kids in the (Catholic) church right by where i grew up, the cry room has been a marvelous thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis: I&rsquo;m thinking a big scarlet&nbsp;<b>S</b> (for <i>silence</i>) on your hat would do it.&nbsp;:)</p>
<p>More seirously, i think that just saying something like &ldquo;It&rsquo;s Ardis—but sorry, i really need some time to think right now.&rdquo;</p>
<p>I have to say, though, that grabbing someone&rsquo;s shoulder to get their attention (as you described) seems a bit, well, off to me. For people that abrupt, there may be nothing you can do. Perhaps have your open scriptures on your lap, whether or not you&rsquo;re actually reading them? If you&rsquo;re engaged in something that&rsquo;s <b>visibly</b> an activity, you may have more luck.</p>
<p>To expand slightly on what i said earlier, though, <i>reverence</i> can mean a lot of different things to different people. For some, it&rsquo;s a deeply and profoundly individual act. For me, yeah, reverence can be an individual thing, but it&rsquo;s at its strongest when it&rsquo;s a communal experience. Of course, i don&rsquo;t know that i&rsquo;m with Clark in defining <i>reverence</i> as &ldquo;a deep respect for&rdquo;—i see it as being something more like &ldquo;worshipfulness&rdquo;. Of course, worshipfulness itself means different things to different people, so we&rsquo;re back at the beginning… (And even if we accept Clark&rsquo;s definition, we run into the problem of trying to balance some people&rsquo;s need for silence with others&rsquo; need for community.)</p>
<p>Oh—and another voice in favor of cry rooms here. I know that they&rsquo;ve fallen out way of fashion in religious architecture, but anytime i&rsquo;ve been to weddings and funerals with my kids in the (Catholic) church right by where i grew up, the cry room has been a marvelous thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67874</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 17:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, other than the body language I&#039;ve described, how can an introvert &quot;let everyone else know what they need&quot; in a way that an extrovert will recognize and respect it? I suppose turning and saying &quot;Don&#039;t touch me! I don&#039;t want to talk to you right now!&quot; could be effective, but probably not conducive to anybody&#039;s definition of reverence. :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, other than the body language I&#8217;ve described, how can an introvert &#8220;let everyone else know what they need&#8221; in a way that an extrovert will recognize and respect it? I suppose turning and saying &#8220;Don&#8217;t touch me! I don&#8217;t want to talk to you right now!&#8221; could be effective, but probably not conducive to anybody&#8217;s definition of reverence. <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67860</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 16:45:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67860</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand reverence to be &quot;a deep respect for,&quot; so respecting others privacy or need for solitude seems natural.  

I think that the challenge of reverence is exacerbated by the fact that with the 3-hour-block, no time is allowed for socializing and greeting.  The OP notes the &quot;close relationship as brothers and sisters.. beget[s] noisy sociability.&quot;  There is no outlet for this--or the myriad odds-and-ends of business (notes form the ward clerk, a comment from the primary president, etc.)during the block, so it naturally spills into the prelude and postlude time surrounding sacrament.  

Oh, and I love the cry rooms that some older chapels have.  I think that such a space would do wonders for increasing reverence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand reverence to be &#8220;a deep respect for,&#8221; so respecting others privacy or need for solitude seems natural.  </p>
<p>I think that the challenge of reverence is exacerbated by the fact that with the 3-hour-block, no time is allowed for socializing and greeting.  The OP notes the &#8220;close relationship as brothers and sisters.. beget[s] noisy sociability.&#8221;  There is no outlet for this&#8211;or the myriad odds-and-ends of business (notes form the ward clerk, a comment from the primary president, etc.)during the block, so it naturally spills into the prelude and postlude time surrounding sacrament.  </p>
<p>Oh, and I love the cry rooms that some older chapels have.  I think that such a space would do wonders for increasing reverence.</p>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67847</link>
		<dc:creator>David B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 16:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67847</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Ardis (#16): Part of the problem, of course, is that &lt;i&gt;reverence&lt;/i&gt; has so many different meanings—and, also, that different people need different things to help them feel reverence. I mean, i know that if my very-extroverted self couldn&#8217;t interact with other people as part of the process, it&#8217;d be much harder for me to feel the worshipfulness that is inherent in full reverence.

My favored solution, i suppose, would be for everyone to simply let everyone else know what they need. I&#8217;m suspecting, though, that that&#8217;s simply because of my own gregariousness, and it might be a bit more difficult for the introverted to find that a workable plan. Others&#8217; thoughts?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ardis (#16): Part of the problem, of course, is that <i>reverence</i> has so many different meanings—and, also, that different people need different things to help them feel reverence. I mean, i know that if my very-extroverted self couldn&rsquo;t interact with other people as part of the process, it&rsquo;d be much harder for me to feel the worshipfulness that is inherent in full reverence.</p>
<p>My favored solution, i suppose, would be for everyone to simply let everyone else know what they need. I&rsquo;m suspecting, though, that that&rsquo;s simply because of my own gregariousness, and it might be a bit more difficult for the introverted to find that a workable plan. Others&rsquo; thoughts?</p>
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		<title>By: ErinAnn</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67743</link>
		<dc:creator>ErinAnn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 May 2011 04:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My husband and I enforce the &quot;no drawing/playing until after the Sacrament&quot; rule because that way our kids are better behaved during the most important part. I remind them that it&#039;s the time that we all quietly think about Jesus, etc. I also explain the meaning of the Sacrament. I don&#039;t do this every Sunday, but often enough that they should actually be viewing it as something other than a lame snacktime.

Prelude music...I&#039;d like to hear that again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My husband and I enforce the &#8220;no drawing/playing until after the Sacrament&#8221; rule because that way our kids are better behaved during the most important part. I remind them that it&#8217;s the time that we all quietly think about Jesus, etc. I also explain the meaning of the Sacrament. I don&#8217;t do this every Sunday, but often enough that they should actually be viewing it as something other than a lame snacktime.</p>
<p>Prelude music&#8230;I&#8217;d like to hear that again.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67657</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2011 21:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David, I do suspect that pre-meeting reverence is a &quot;thing&quot; more important to Pres. Packer than to many others, including many other GAs. But I don&#039;t do it (or try to do it) because I&#039;ve been told to; I do it because I have just hiked 20 minutes to get to church, and I&#039;ve been fighting the wind or rain or heat all the way, as well as puffing a bit because I&#039;m no Olympian, and nursing a sore right knee. I really do appreciate a few minutes of separation between that not-so-pleasant physical exertion and Sacrament Meeting, to catch my breath and settle down and focus. Prelude music helps me do that far better than the rush of ward business and jokey welcoming and announcement of whichever GAs are present and presiding in the ward today and aren&#039;t we so very lucky to have so many of them living withing our ward boundaries, brothers and sisters? which begins most of my ward meetings.

If somebody is smiling and trying to catch people&#039;s eyes and reaching out a hand to shake, that&#039;s one thing. But if somebody is sitting quietly, maybe with her eyes closed and maybe with a look of concentration on her face, it would be a matter of courtesy, I think, for people to refrain from grabbing her shoulder and giving her a rude shake as they announce that they&#039;ve been working on remembering her name, &quot;so welcome to church, Sister Purcel -- it&#039;s Ardeth, right?&quot;

But if other people feel that those minutes are an imposition forced on them by someone in the hierarchy, something which stifles their natural gregariousness, I can understand why they might not recognize my own preference for stillness.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, I do suspect that pre-meeting reverence is a &#8220;thing&#8221; more important to Pres. Packer than to many others, including many other GAs. But I don&#8217;t do it (or try to do it) because I&#8217;ve been told to; I do it because I have just hiked 20 minutes to get to church, and I&#8217;ve been fighting the wind or rain or heat all the way, as well as puffing a bit because I&#8217;m no Olympian, and nursing a sore right knee. I really do appreciate a few minutes of separation between that not-so-pleasant physical exertion and Sacrament Meeting, to catch my breath and settle down and focus. Prelude music helps me do that far better than the rush of ward business and jokey welcoming and announcement of whichever GAs are present and presiding in the ward today and aren&#8217;t we so very lucky to have so many of them living withing our ward boundaries, brothers and sisters? which begins most of my ward meetings.</p>
<p>If somebody is smiling and trying to catch people&#8217;s eyes and reaching out a hand to shake, that&#8217;s one thing. But if somebody is sitting quietly, maybe with her eyes closed and maybe with a look of concentration on her face, it would be a matter of courtesy, I think, for people to refrain from grabbing her shoulder and giving her a rude shake as they announce that they&#8217;ve been working on remembering her name, &#8220;so welcome to church, Sister Purcel &#8212; it&#8217;s Ardeth, right?&#8221;</p>
<p>But if other people feel that those minutes are an imposition forced on them by someone in the hierarchy, something which stifles their natural gregariousness, I can understand why they might not recognize my own preference for stillness.</p>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67651</link>
		<dc:creator>David B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2011 21:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67651</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder if we&#8217;ve moved to the wrong extreme in these sorts of things in some ways, though.

In (what&#8217;s the word?—not &lt;i&gt;contradiction&lt;/i&gt;, maybe &lt;i&gt;problematization&lt;/i&gt;) to the sentiments in #2 and #3, i&#8217;d suggest that everyone pay attention to the video feed in the minutes preceding general conference sessions (aside, of course, from the Sunday morning one). You&#8217;ll see the general authorities of all levels sitting in their seats, chatting quietly with each other, even (gasp and shock!) laughing. In general, when President Monson comes in, you&#8217;ll see him chat with people as he&#8217;s on his way to his seat.

Given all that, i have to wonder whether we&#8217;re really supposed to sit as ultra-quietly in the chapel as some of our local church leaders like to tell us.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder if we&rsquo;ve moved to the wrong extreme in these sorts of things in some ways, though.</p>
<p>In (what&rsquo;s the word?—not <i>contradiction</i>, maybe <i>problematization</i>) to the sentiments in #2 and #3, i&rsquo;d suggest that everyone pay attention to the video feed in the minutes preceding general conference sessions (aside, of course, from the Sunday morning one). You&rsquo;ll see the general authorities of all levels sitting in their seats, chatting quietly with each other, even (gasp and shock!) laughing. In general, when President Monson comes in, you&rsquo;ll see him chat with people as he&rsquo;s on his way to his seat.</p>
<p>Given all that, i have to wonder whether we&rsquo;re really supposed to sit as ultra-quietly in the chapel as some of our local church leaders like to tell us.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67649</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2011 20:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67649</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The &quot;no toys or coloring until after the sacrament&quot; must have been ingrained well, since that was my family&#039;s rule growing up in the &#039;80s.  

I thought this set of rules holds up extremely well 50 years after the fact, and was very well written, too. (The phrase &quot;there is evidence that many are yet in the learning process of acquiring these attributes,&quot; is more charitable than I would have written it!)

Finally, I like that this line &quot;This respect for churches and people is a visible component of reverence,&quot; implies that there are other, invisible components of reverence as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8220;no toys or coloring until after the sacrament&#8221; must have been ingrained well, since that was my family&#8217;s rule growing up in the &#8217;80s.  </p>
<p>I thought this set of rules holds up extremely well 50 years after the fact, and was very well written, too. (The phrase &#8220;there is evidence that many are yet in the learning process of acquiring these attributes,&#8221; is more charitable than I would have written it!)</p>
<p>Finally, I like that this line &#8220;This respect for churches and people is a visible component of reverence,&#8221; implies that there are other, invisible components of reverence as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67646</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2011 20:48:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[#5 The sentiment you recall is taught it Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:
&lt;blockquote&gt; 

It is an insult to a meeting for persons to leave just before its close. If they must go out, let them go half an hour before. No gentlemen will go out of a meeting just at closing. --p.287&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Original source stated as &quot;DHC 5:338-339 (April 7, 1843.)&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>#5 The sentiment you recall is taught it Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>It is an insult to a meeting for persons to leave just before its close. If they must go out, let them go half an hour before. No gentlemen will go out of a meeting just at closing. &#8211;p.287</p></blockquote>
<p>Original source stated as &#8220;DHC 5:338-339 (April 7, 1843.)&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Crow</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/05/26/attitudes-and-manners-discussion-4-courtesy-in-church/comment-page-1/#comment-67644</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Crow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 May 2011 20:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=6530#comment-67644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Coffinberry, I was a perfect angel as a child. I sat quietly every Sunday and I never fought with my younger brother during the sacrament. That is my story and I&#039;m sticking to it.

My father was frequently away on ship as he was in the Navy, and so my mother would attend church with the 5 kids. Her friend was in a similar situation, but with 6 kids. So the two of them would take over a pew and sit at each end to corral us. My mother used these rules as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coffinberry, I was a perfect angel as a child. I sat quietly every Sunday and I never fought with my younger brother during the sacrament. That is my story and I&#8217;m sticking to it.</p>
<p>My father was frequently away on ship as he was in the Navy, and so my mother would attend church with the 5 kids. Her friend was in a similar situation, but with 6 kids. So the two of them would take over a pew and sit at each end to corral us. My mother used these rules as well.</p>
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