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	<title>Comments on: I Have More Questions, 1890</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Steve C.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59691</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Apr 2011 00:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59691</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We do have a tendency to write too much into things such as the sacrament.  An older lady in my unit asked about washing the sacramental cloths.  In particular she asked if it was allowable for a female to touch the cloths.  I assured her that it was fine.  But again, that is one of those misconceptions that creep in.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We do have a tendency to write too much into things such as the sacrament.  An older lady in my unit asked about washing the sacramental cloths.  In particular she asked if it was allowable for a female to touch the cloths.  I assured her that it was fine.  But again, that is one of those misconceptions that creep in.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew H</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59447</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2011 05:02:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For about the first 6 months after I became a deacon the ward I was in had no teachers, just deacons, about 8 of us.  Since there were no teachers they let us deacons prepare the sacrament.  Then one of our deacons turned 14 and was made a teacher.  The following Sunday several of us deacons went to help as we were accustomed but we were told we could no longer help prepare now that we had a teacher, poor guy had to make all the trays by himself for several months untill someone else had a birthday.

When I was a 16 year-old priest I was called to be the YM Sec., don&#039;t know if that would be kosher now, I had my last bishop tell me about a year ago that a sister could be the SS Sec (2006 Hand book of Ins.) but neither of us had ever seen it done.  I was only about 6 in 1978 so I don&#039;t remember this personally but my father told me that in our ward in Cailf. in the mid 70&#039;s the SS Sec was a black man.

A year or so back our Stake RS pres spoke to the ward I was in on HC Sunday.  She started her talk by tearfully bearing her testimony that one of the signs by which we could know for sure that this was the true church and was set up by God himself was that it had not chagned at all since the the day Joseph Smith started it.  I briefly looked around the congregation for our &quot;First Elder&quot; and when I could not find him I took a mental nap for the rest of her talk.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For about the first 6 months after I became a deacon the ward I was in had no teachers, just deacons, about 8 of us.  Since there were no teachers they let us deacons prepare the sacrament.  Then one of our deacons turned 14 and was made a teacher.  The following Sunday several of us deacons went to help as we were accustomed but we were told we could no longer help prepare now that we had a teacher, poor guy had to make all the trays by himself for several months untill someone else had a birthday.</p>
<p>When I was a 16 year-old priest I was called to be the YM Sec., don&#8217;t know if that would be kosher now, I had my last bishop tell me about a year ago that a sister could be the SS Sec (2006 Hand book of Ins.) but neither of us had ever seen it done.  I was only about 6 in 1978 so I don&#8217;t remember this personally but my father told me that in our ward in Cailf. in the mid 70&#8242;s the SS Sec was a black man.</p>
<p>A year or so back our Stake RS pres spoke to the ward I was in on HC Sunday.  She started her talk by tearfully bearing her testimony that one of the signs by which we could know for sure that this was the true church and was set up by God himself was that it had not chagned at all since the the day Joseph Smith started it.  I briefly looked around the congregation for our &#8220;First Elder&#8221; and when I could not find him I took a mental nap for the rest of her talk.</p>
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		<title>By: Grant</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59412</link>
		<dc:creator>Grant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Apr 2011 00:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59412</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I remember when I was a teen, before the block, we had a Sunday School Superintendent who was not a member of the church. All his family was. I have no idea why he wasn&#039;t. I think I heard he joined later so it was probably a good conversion/activation tool

And the deacon thing, this is close to a conversation we had just this last Sunday in Teachers Quorum. One teacher, happened to by my youngest son, said that a Priest, who just happened to be his older brother, had told him that teachers should never ever touch the sacrament table. I tactfully corrected saying that the scripture authorization for you to even be there is just to assist the priests so I think it&#039;s OK and I&#039;ll have a talk with your brother (which I forgot to do until now!) I also remember when I was a deacon that we believed we would be struck down if he did any sacrament preparation and as a teacher that we didn&#039;t dare touch the sacrament table during the actual ordinance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember when I was a teen, before the block, we had a Sunday School Superintendent who was not a member of the church. All his family was. I have no idea why he wasn&#8217;t. I think I heard he joined later so it was probably a good conversion/activation tool</p>
<p>And the deacon thing, this is close to a conversation we had just this last Sunday in Teachers Quorum. One teacher, happened to by my youngest son, said that a Priest, who just happened to be his older brother, had told him that teachers should never ever touch the sacrament table. I tactfully corrected saying that the scripture authorization for you to even be there is just to assist the priests so I think it&#8217;s OK and I&#8217;ll have a talk with your brother (which I forgot to do until now!) I also remember when I was a deacon that we believed we would be struck down if he did any sacrament preparation and as a teacher that we didn&#8217;t dare touch the sacrament table during the actual ordinance.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59404</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59404</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I suppose someone should mention this bit of ugliness in connection with this discussion of passing the sacrament trays down the benches: There is anecdotal evidence that pre-1978, some members would go to elaborate and very visible lengths to pass trays &lt;em&gt;around&lt;/em&gt; the few black members so that black hands never touched the handles of the trays, as if holding and passing the trays did require the priesthood -- never mind that the member making such a nasty show might be passing the tray around the black member into the hands of a woman.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose someone should mention this bit of ugliness in connection with this discussion of passing the sacrament trays down the benches: There is anecdotal evidence that pre-1978, some members would go to elaborate and very visible lengths to pass trays <em>around</em> the few black members so that black hands never touched the handles of the trays, as if holding and passing the trays did require the priesthood &#8212; never mind that the member making such a nasty show might be passing the tray around the black member into the hands of a woman.</p>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59403</link>
		<dc:creator>David B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 22:38:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59403</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Technically&lt;/i&gt; (though pretty much only technically), the ward library remains under the stewardship of the ward Sunday school president nowadays, as well.

And i know a good number of female Mormons, both self-identified feminists and non-feminists, plus a few male Mormons of whatever level of feministishness, who are quite aware that the members of the church passing the sacrament trays amongst themselves is a nice bit of evidence that the distribution of the sacramental bread and water isn&#8217;t a specifically priesthood responsibility, no matter what longstanding church practice may be.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Technically</i> (though pretty much only technically), the ward library remains under the stewardship of the ward Sunday school president nowadays, as well.</p>
<p>And i know a good number of female Mormons, both self-identified feminists and non-feminists, plus a few male Mormons of whatever level of feministishness, who are quite aware that the members of the church passing the sacrament trays amongst themselves is a nice bit of evidence that the distribution of the sacramental bread and water isn&rsquo;t a specifically priesthood responsibility, no matter what longstanding church practice may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59388</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 21:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59388</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s see ... he was also responsible for establishing and maintaining ward libraries, and teaching teachers how to make visual aids and use those new-fangled projectors and overheads. He was supposed to see that every teacher in the ward subscribed to &lt;em&gt;The Instructor&lt;/em&gt;. People weren&#039;t automatically members of any auxiliaries, so he was responsible for identifying and recruiting new members. He had to raise funds both for his own ward Sunday School and to help finance the General Sunday School Board travels (through Nickel Sundays, for instance, where he had to build enthusiasm in everybody to bring money to contribute on a certain day). And he had umpteen bureaucratic reports to fill out regularly for the stake and above.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s see &#8230; he was also responsible for establishing and maintaining ward libraries, and teaching teachers how to make visual aids and use those new-fangled projectors and overheads. He was supposed to see that every teacher in the ward subscribed to <em>The Instructor</em>. People weren&#8217;t automatically members of any auxiliaries, so he was responsible for identifying and recruiting new members. He had to raise funds both for his own ward Sunday School and to help finance the General Sunday School Board travels (through Nickel Sundays, for instance, where he had to build enthusiasm in everybody to bring money to contribute on a certain day). And he had umpteen bureaucratic reports to fill out regularly for the stake and above.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59387</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 21:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59387</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pre-block, when there were both Primary (weekday) and Sunday School (Sunday), the SS Superintendent&#039;s duties were easily the equivalent, if not greater, to today&#039;s Primary President. Some of his old duties have been scattered among other positions today, too.

For much of the 20th century, he (rather than the bishop) identified teachers, and was responsible for training them. The classes he was responsible for ranged all the way from nursery to several adult classes (Gospel Doctrine or whatever it might have been called at any period, and missionary, and parent/family relations, and family history). He ordered the supplies for the Sunday School. He was responsible for the opening exercises, including talks and concert recitations and music practices. He held a regular weekly prayer meeting for his faculty. There were Union meetings with other Sunday Schools in the stake, and beyond, with additional training.

Now we&#039;ve done away with opening exercises, split responsibility for the children entirely to the Primary, eliminated music practice, don&#039;t bother to train teachers at all, don&#039;t hold prayer meetings, and the clerk orders supplies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pre-block, when there were both Primary (weekday) and Sunday School (Sunday), the SS Superintendent&#8217;s duties were easily the equivalent, if not greater, to today&#8217;s Primary President. Some of his old duties have been scattered among other positions today, too.</p>
<p>For much of the 20th century, he (rather than the bishop) identified teachers, and was responsible for training them. The classes he was responsible for ranged all the way from nursery to several adult classes (Gospel Doctrine or whatever it might have been called at any period, and missionary, and parent/family relations, and family history). He ordered the supplies for the Sunday School. He was responsible for the opening exercises, including talks and concert recitations and music practices. He held a regular weekly prayer meeting for his faculty. There were Union meetings with other Sunday Schools in the stake, and beyond, with additional training.</p>
<p>Now we&#8217;ve done away with opening exercises, split responsibility for the children entirely to the Primary, eliminated music practice, don&#8217;t bother to train teachers at all, don&#8217;t hold prayer meetings, and the clerk orders supplies.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59383</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 20:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59383</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Having no real recollection of the pre-3-hour-block meeting schedule, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around why the calling of Sunday School Superintendant was so important.

What was going on with the deacons in 1890 to create so much concern? (I admit that having the &quot;most sacred ordinance outside the temple&quot; administered by 12-year-olds is something of a non-sequiter, and I have no background on the history of how the Aaronic advancement by age developed.)

In my brother&#039;s stake in Northern California, the SP authorized deacons to held prepare the sacrament, as many wards had a shortage (or absence) of Teachers, and a deacons duty is to &quot;assist the teachers in their duties&quot;!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having no real recollection of the pre-3-hour-block meeting schedule, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around why the calling of Sunday School Superintendant was so important.</p>
<p>What was going on with the deacons in 1890 to create so much concern? (I admit that having the &#8220;most sacred ordinance outside the temple&#8221; administered by 12-year-olds is something of a non-sequiter, and I have no background on the history of how the Aaronic advancement by age developed.)</p>
<p>In my brother&#8217;s stake in Northern California, the SP authorized deacons to held prepare the sacrament, as many wards had a shortage (or absence) of Teachers, and a deacons duty is to &#8220;assist the teachers in their duties&#8221;!</p>
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		<title>By: John Mansfield</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59372</link>
		<dc:creator>John Mansfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:41:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The part about whether to call a new superintendent reminds me of a case I came across of a bishop who had served a couple decades and in the middle of that was away on a mission.  His counselors covered bishopric duties while he was gone.  There seems to be something in that about seeing a calling as much more than an assignment, and not changed casually.  If they had the saying &quot;once a bishop always a bishop&quot; a century ago, they would have really meant it far beyond our conception, and apparently that went for the Sunday School superintendent too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The part about whether to call a new superintendent reminds me of a case I came across of a bishop who had served a couple decades and in the middle of that was away on a mission.  His counselors covered bishopric duties while he was gone.  There seems to be something in that about seeing a calling as much more than an assignment, and not changed casually.  If they had the saying &#8220;once a bishop always a bishop&#8221; a century ago, they would have really meant it far beyond our conception, and apparently that went for the Sunday School superintendent too.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/04/22/i-have-more-questions-1890/comment-page-1/#comment-59367</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8056#comment-59367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Church President Heber J. Grant wrote a letter outlining the exact same logic as to why deacons (by his time young boys) were able to pass the sacrament.  Similarly, the preparation of the sacrament table by teachers and gathering fast offerings are not priesthood duties.

I especially like the Sunday School setting apart bit.  fits into the older practices, like RS president setting apart primary officers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Church President Heber J. Grant wrote a letter outlining the exact same logic as to why deacons (by his time young boys) were able to pass the sacrament.  Similarly, the preparation of the sacrament table by teachers and gathering fast offerings are not priesthood duties.</p>
<p>I especially like the Sunday School setting apart bit.  fits into the older practices, like RS president setting apart primary officers.</p>
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