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	<title>Comments on: The Truth Is Pulling Its Boots On</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47430</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 17:40:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47430</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Cliff&#039;s post-#11-says it for me.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cliff&#8217;s post-#11-says it for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Maurine Ward</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47336</link>
		<dc:creator>Maurine Ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 03:56:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47336</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Bruce Crow&#039;s post #1.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Bruce Crow&#8217;s post #1.</p>
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		<title>By: Gdub</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47309</link>
		<dc:creator>Gdub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 00:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47309</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Once again, an excellent post. I know it&#039;s easy for me to get caught up in an argument, and thus, waste valuable time and energy which could have spent in a better endeavor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once again, an excellent post. I know it&#8217;s easy for me to get caught up in an argument, and thus, waste valuable time and energy which could have spent in a better endeavor.</p>
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		<title>By: Cliff</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47296</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 22:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen to all said, and a BIG THANK YOU to you Ardis for this blog and all your hard work to help people to want to think!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen to all said, and a BIG THANK YOU to you Ardis for this blog and all your hard work to help people to want to think!</p>
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		<title>By: Researcher</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47294</link>
		<dc:creator>Researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:59:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wikipedia can be an absolutely amazing resource. I like looking up biographies and mathematical terms. Looking at my browsing history, I see that in the past week I have looked at a wide variety of articles with subjects ranging from high-density lipoprotein and Mount Ida (Crete) to Edward Tullidge and Royden G. Derrick.

But I agree that there are articles that can create some real disputes in a community, including the article on &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoplastic_left_heart_syndrome&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;hypoplastic left heart syndrome&lt;/a&gt; (HLHS). Statistics and treatment options can be overstated or understated. Some people interested in the condition may feel that compassionate care (letting a baby die) rather than the use of extreme amounts of medical intervention to palliate the condition should be stated as on option while other people may find that option unethical since the treatment options can save the lives of 7 to 9 out of 10 children.

Looking at that article right now, I see problems with the writing style, citations, summaries, conclusions, links, history, and the random smattering of unnecessary details.

So, I guess if you take some of the behind-the-scenes discussions on an article like the one on HLHS, and increase the interested audience to millions, potentially, rather than thousands, I can understand how the article on Joseph Smith can be so very polarizing.

Well, this is a long comment! All I really mean to say is that we do appreciate you, Ardis, and all your efforts to provide a place on the internet for accurate and well-researched Mormon history, and particularly all the beautiful stories about the lives of members of the church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wikipedia can be an absolutely amazing resource. I like looking up biographies and mathematical terms. Looking at my browsing history, I see that in the past week I have looked at a wide variety of articles with subjects ranging from high-density lipoprotein and Mount Ida (Crete) to Edward Tullidge and Royden G. Derrick.</p>
<p>But I agree that there are articles that can create some real disputes in a community, including the article on <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoplastic_left_heart_syndrome" rel="nofollow">hypoplastic left heart syndrome</a> (HLHS). Statistics and treatment options can be overstated or understated. Some people interested in the condition may feel that compassionate care (letting a baby die) rather than the use of extreme amounts of medical intervention to palliate the condition should be stated as on option while other people may find that option unethical since the treatment options can save the lives of 7 to 9 out of 10 children.</p>
<p>Looking at that article right now, I see problems with the writing style, citations, summaries, conclusions, links, history, and the random smattering of unnecessary details.</p>
<p>So, I guess if you take some of the behind-the-scenes discussions on an article like the one on HLHS, and increase the interested audience to millions, potentially, rather than thousands, I can understand how the article on Joseph Smith can be so very polarizing.</p>
<p>Well, this is a long comment! All I really mean to say is that we do appreciate you, Ardis, and all your efforts to provide a place on the internet for accurate and well-researched Mormon history, and particularly all the beautiful stories about the lives of members of the church.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47288</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:06:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;ve pretty much spelled out, David, why I don&#039;t much enjoy debates on any subject anywhere, and seldom get involved in any attempts to persuade people to change opinions -- &quot;a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.&quot; It&#039;s also why I don&#039;t welcome and virtually never allow ex- or non-Mormons to argue for their points of view here. Keepa is not Wikipedia; Keepa&#039;s partisanship is openly disclosed.

Aside from a small handful of clearly identifiable &quot;debunking&quot; posts -- ones targeting supposed Joseph Smith daguerreotypes, or Moroni&#039;s purported dedication of the Manti Temple site, or the origin of George Washington&#039;s &quot;prophecy&quot; -- I can&#039;t think of much I have written to convince anyone to change beliefs. That&#039;s not my schtick. Rather, I simply tell stories or present artifacts that represent the Mormon past as I believe it to have been, informed both by my general worldview and by the highest standards of scholarship of which I am capable (within the time and economic limitations of this medium).

That&#039;s what I mean by &quot;putting the truth out there.&quot; My method is not to argue for truth against error by opening pitting them against each other, but to offer truth, to make it available, to take it out of the dusty records and put it in public view where readers can take it or leave it. 

That&#039;s a very different thing from attempting to convince or persuade, &lt;em&gt;and a very different thing from silencing alternate voices in a forum like Wikipedia which pretends to arrive at truth by the negotiation of all viewpoints.&lt;/em&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;ve pretty much spelled out, David, why I don&#8217;t much enjoy debates on any subject anywhere, and seldom get involved in any attempts to persuade people to change opinions &#8212; &#8220;a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.&#8221; It&#8217;s also why I don&#8217;t welcome and virtually never allow ex- or non-Mormons to argue for their points of view here. Keepa is not Wikipedia; Keepa&#8217;s partisanship is openly disclosed.</p>
<p>Aside from a small handful of clearly identifiable &#8220;debunking&#8221; posts &#8212; ones targeting supposed Joseph Smith daguerreotypes, or Moroni&#8217;s purported dedication of the Manti Temple site, or the origin of George Washington&#8217;s &#8220;prophecy&#8221; &#8212; I can&#8217;t think of much I have written to convince anyone to change beliefs. That&#8217;s not my schtick. Rather, I simply tell stories or present artifacts that represent the Mormon past as I believe it to have been, informed both by my general worldview and by the highest standards of scholarship of which I am capable (within the time and economic limitations of this medium).</p>
<p>That&#8217;s what I mean by &#8220;putting the truth out there.&#8221; My method is not to argue for truth against error by opening pitting them against each other, but to offer truth, to make it available, to take it out of the dusty records and put it in public view where readers can take it or leave it. </p>
<p>That&#8217;s a very different thing from attempting to convince or persuade, <em>and a very different thing from silencing alternate voices in a forum like Wikipedia which pretends to arrive at truth by the negotiation of all viewpoints.</em></p>
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		<title>By: David B</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47284</link>
		<dc:creator>David B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem, of course, is that in any attempt to get at historical truth, what counts as compelling evidence depends largely on your assumptions going in. (It&#039;s always possible those assumptions will be changed by what&#039;s found along the way, but let&#039;s be honest—that&#039;s rarer than one might hope.)

Consider the Kent State shootings in 1970, which offer a good parallel to the differing accounts of the assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith given above. Some of the initial reports claimed that the National Guard troops were fired on first; that&#039;s generally considered to be incorrect now. However, i know a number of people who heard that report first, and insist that it was true but whitewashed out of the history, because (a)&#160;that was the first report they heard, and therefore closer in time to the actual events, and (b)&#160;it squares well with some of their assumptions about anti-war protests of that time.

Who&#039;s right? I wasn&#039;t around to see it, so i have to rely on what i see as the weight of the evidence rather than personal experience (and memory&#039;s pretty slippery, anyway). But clearly, some people i know, including people i think are pretty rational types, opt to go with other sources. What should be on Wikipedia&#039;s page on it? I know my preference, but i can pretty well guess theirs.

Another specific example, but more topical: Reports by those close to the action claim that Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and and others claim that he tried to stop it. Further, (at least some of) the claims are mutually exclusive. I know which ones i believe and why, but simply presenting that side and my reasons for it isn&#039;t going to be all that convincing to someone who opts to believe the reports i&#039;ve chosen not to.

(Longer than i intended. Sorry.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem, of course, is that in any attempt to get at historical truth, what counts as compelling evidence depends largely on your assumptions going in. (It&#8217;s always possible those assumptions will be changed by what&#8217;s found along the way, but let&#8217;s be honest—that&#8217;s rarer than one might hope.)</p>
<p>Consider the Kent State shootings in 1970, which offer a good parallel to the differing accounts of the assassination of Joseph and Hyrum Smith given above. Some of the initial reports claimed that the National Guard troops were fired on first; that&#8217;s generally considered to be incorrect now. However, i know a number of people who heard that report first, and insist that it was true but whitewashed out of the history, because (a)&nbsp;that was the first report they heard, and therefore closer in time to the actual events, and (b)&nbsp;it squares well with some of their assumptions about anti-war protests of that time.</p>
<p>Who&#8217;s right? I wasn&#8217;t around to see it, so i have to rely on what i see as the weight of the evidence rather than personal experience (and memory&#8217;s pretty slippery, anyway). But clearly, some people i know, including people i think are pretty rational types, opt to go with other sources. What should be on Wikipedia&#8217;s page on it? I know my preference, but i can pretty well guess theirs.</p>
<p>Another specific example, but more topical: Reports by those close to the action claim that Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and and others claim that he tried to stop it. Further, (at least some of) the claims are mutually exclusive. I know which ones i believe and why, but simply presenting that side and my reasons for it isn&#8217;t going to be all that convincing to someone who opts to believe the reports i&#8217;ve chosen not to.</p>
<p>(Longer than i intended. Sorry.)</p>
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		<title>By: Left Field</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47276</link>
		<dc:creator>Left Field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47276</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When you write of &quot;putting the truth out there,&quot; I am reminded of your Mormon marijuana post, which people still do seem to stumble across occasionally.

I think it&#039;s interesting that those who scream the loudest about our &quot;whitewashed&quot; history seldom are any better in getting the story right.  I&#039;ve seen people tout the &lt;em&gt;South Park&lt;/em&gt; version of Mormon history as obviously better than anything written by Mormons, despite the garbling of the Martin Harris story, obviously spun to promote a particular (inaccurate) interpretation of events.  

I&#039;ve read endless bellyaching about the infamous Brigham Young manual, claiming that all references to polygamy were dishonestly edited out without any notation of missing material.  I personally compared the passages in question with the Journal of Discourses and found that in some instances they did go a bit overboard on the editing, but without exception, every alteration was indicated by square brackets or ellipses.  But it just makes a better story to say that editing was hidden by not using standard editorial notations.  Some even claim (falsely) that none of the Church Presidents manuals mention polygamy.  And so the faith-promoting (or demoting) stories get propagated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you write of &#8220;putting the truth out there,&#8221; I am reminded of your Mormon marijuana post, which people still do seem to stumble across occasionally.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s interesting that those who scream the loudest about our &#8220;whitewashed&#8221; history seldom are any better in getting the story right.  I&#8217;ve seen people tout the <em>South Park</em> version of Mormon history as obviously better than anything written by Mormons, despite the garbling of the Martin Harris story, obviously spun to promote a particular (inaccurate) interpretation of events.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve read endless bellyaching about the infamous Brigham Young manual, claiming that all references to polygamy were dishonestly edited out without any notation of missing material.  I personally compared the passages in question with the Journal of Discourses and found that in some instances they did go a bit overboard on the editing, but without exception, every alteration was indicated by square brackets or ellipses.  But it just makes a better story to say that editing was hidden by not using standard editorial notations.  Some even claim (falsely) that none of the Church Presidents manuals mention polygamy.  And so the faith-promoting (or demoting) stories get propagated.</p>
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		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47272</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[(Adds his emphatic &quot;Amen!&quot; to the chorus of amens rumbling through the bloggernacle)

I like your admonition to &quot;Put the truth out there&quot;.  I recently read Peter Hoffer&#039;s (U of Georgia) short book about truth in history, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=historian%27s+paradox&amp;x=0&amp;y=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Historian&#039;s Paradox&lt;/a&gt;.  It was for me as an aspiring amateur in history an eye opening lesson on objectivity, the elusive nature of historical truth, and the common logical fallacies of bad history or intentional distortion and misinformation.

However, all the good intentions and hard research and careful scholarship always seems to be chasing those individuals with a predetermined agenda and a seemingly endless amount of time and energy who want to defame or discredit someone (or in this case, the LDS church), and don&#039;t much care for the truth.  

Maybe we could call the Keepaninnies the &quot;Truth-Boot Squad&quot;.  Keep your bootlaces tied and your socks dry!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Adds his emphatic &#8220;Amen!&#8221; to the chorus of amens rumbling through the bloggernacle)</p>
<p>I like your admonition to &#8220;Put the truth out there&#8221;.  I recently read Peter Hoffer&#8217;s (U of Georgia) short book about truth in history, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&amp;field-keywords=historian%27s+paradox&amp;x=0&amp;y=0" rel="nofollow">The Historian&#8217;s Paradox</a>.  It was for me as an aspiring amateur in history an eye opening lesson on objectivity, the elusive nature of historical truth, and the common logical fallacies of bad history or intentional distortion and misinformation.</p>
<p>However, all the good intentions and hard research and careful scholarship always seems to be chasing those individuals with a predetermined agenda and a seemingly endless amount of time and energy who want to defame or discredit someone (or in this case, the LDS church), and don&#8217;t much care for the truth.  </p>
<p>Maybe we could call the Keepaninnies the &#8220;Truth-Boot Squad&#8221;.  Keep your bootlaces tied and your socks dry!</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2011/02/08/the-truth-is-pulling-its-boots-on/comment-page-1/#comment-47264</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=11115#comment-47264</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And Amen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And Amen.</p>
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