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	<title>Comments on: In Our Ward: Lesson 32: &#8220;I Know that My Redeemer Liveth&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25601</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25601</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[harchil, we didn&#039;t talk about it because I didn&#039;t really have a satisfactory explanation beyond what I had already tried (i.e., that the story has a conventional framework with conventional elements at the end as well as at the beginning), but I was set to ask whether class members felt Job&#039;s doubling of everything was really adequate compensation for his losses. There are parents in my class who have lost children to death. I can&#039;t imagine any one of them agreeing that having more children, no matter how wonderful, would replace the life of a child who had died. Times ten, in Job&#039;s case. I can&#039;t accept that as a real life scenario; I can intellectually accept it as a stylistic device. &quot;Unfulfiling,&quot; indeed. Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>harchil, we didn&#8217;t talk about it because I didn&#8217;t really have a satisfactory explanation beyond what I had already tried (i.e., that the story has a conventional framework with conventional elements at the end as well as at the beginning), but I was set to ask whether class members felt Job&#8217;s doubling of everything was really adequate compensation for his losses. There are parents in my class who have lost children to death. I can&#8217;t imagine any one of them agreeing that having more children, no matter how wonderful, would replace the life of a child who had died. Times ten, in Job&#8217;s case. I can&#8217;t accept that as a real life scenario; I can intellectually accept it as a stylistic device. &#8220;Unfulfiling,&#8221; indeed. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: harpchil</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25600</link>
		<dc:creator>harpchil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 22:28:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25600</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent.  I wish I could have been present in this lesson.  The GD teacher in my ward ended up spending most of the time summarizing the story.  He finally pointed out that the only thing Job didn&#039;t lose was his faith, and that Job got back twice what he had before, then the lesson ended.  The lack of detail drove me crazy, and the focus on the Hollywood ending was deeply unfulfilling.  

Thanks for giving me another chance for this lesson.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent.  I wish I could have been present in this lesson.  The GD teacher in my ward ended up spending most of the time summarizing the story.  He finally pointed out that the only thing Job didn&#8217;t lose was his faith, and that Job got back twice what he had before, then the lesson ended.  The lack of detail drove me crazy, and the focus on the Hollywood ending was deeply unfulfilling.  </p>
<p>Thanks for giving me another chance for this lesson.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25573</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amen, Steve. We seem to learn true doctrine from the stories of the prodigal son and the good Samaritan without having to believe that they are strictly biographical. I&#039;m not sure why so many people feel that consideration of literary elements -- to say nothing of transcription or translation errors -- of a Biblical story means that we&#039;re calling the whole thing a lie. I&#039;m not, at least, and I don&#039;t think anyone else here is, either.

Thank you all for the earlier comments, too. My oral presentations don&#039;t always flow as easily as my typed ones, and your reactions make me feel like I&#039;ve connected better here than in class.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amen, Steve. We seem to learn true doctrine from the stories of the prodigal son and the good Samaritan without having to believe that they are strictly biographical. I&#8217;m not sure why so many people feel that consideration of literary elements &#8212; to say nothing of transcription or translation errors &#8212; of a Biblical story means that we&#8217;re calling the whole thing a lie. I&#8217;m not, at least, and I don&#8217;t think anyone else here is, either.</p>
<p>Thank you all for the earlier comments, too. My oral presentations don&#8217;t always flow as easily as my typed ones, and your reactions make me feel like I&#8217;ve connected better here than in class.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve C.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25570</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 15:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ve always had trouble with the Job story--i.e. Satan cutting a deal with God.  To me it sounds like the &quot;Devil Came Down to Georgia&quot; song.  When I was in seminary many years ago, for a Super Saturday we had a CES guy present a lesson on Job.  His comment was that we don&#039;t know if the story is literal or not.  I remember mentioning that on my mission and was shot down by other missionaries as though it were denying the Holy Ghost to think it might not be literal.

I also taught a Gospel Doctrine class that turned out in a similar fashion.  It was on Jonah and my intent was not to get bogged down on whether Jonah was swallowed by a whale or a big fish.  I wanted to discuss the symbolism and when I suggested that we do so instead of discussing if it was a literal story, hands shot up.  So we missed the points of the lesson.

I guess when it comes to biblical interpretations I just keep in mind that we understand the Bible as far as it is translated/transmitted correctly and not necessarily literally.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve always had trouble with the Job story&#8211;i.e. Satan cutting a deal with God.  To me it sounds like the &#8220;Devil Came Down to Georgia&#8221; song.  When I was in seminary many years ago, for a Super Saturday we had a CES guy present a lesson on Job.  His comment was that we don&#8217;t know if the story is literal or not.  I remember mentioning that on my mission and was shot down by other missionaries as though it were denying the Holy Ghost to think it might not be literal.</p>
<p>I also taught a Gospel Doctrine class that turned out in a similar fashion.  It was on Jonah and my intent was not to get bogged down on whether Jonah was swallowed by a whale or a big fish.  I wanted to discuss the symbolism and when I suggested that we do so instead of discussing if it was a literal story, hands shot up.  So we missed the points of the lesson.</p>
<p>I guess when it comes to biblical interpretations I just keep in mind that we understand the Bible as far as it is translated/transmitted correctly and not necessarily literally.</p>
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		<title>By: David Y.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25569</link>
		<dc:creator>David Y.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 14:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow.  From the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/28/funny-bones-1948-3rd-set/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;whimsical&lt;/a&gt;, to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/25/what-were-they-thinking-again/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;shocking&lt;/a&gt;, to this profoundly spiritual post -- Keepapitchinin really delivers!  Thanks for this, all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow.  From the <a href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/28/funny-bones-1948-3rd-set/" rel="nofollow">whimsical</a>, to the <a href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/25/what-were-they-thinking-again/" rel="nofollow">shocking</a>, to this profoundly spiritual post &#8212; Keepapitchinin really delivers!  Thanks for this, all.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25566</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25566</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m thinking of having our Sunday School take a two-week vacation so we can be sure to have your lessons available for our teachers!

Great lesson, Ardis.  And wonderful handling of those problematic &quot;conversations&quot; in the first few chapters.  Thanks for the insight.

And thanks to Researcher for that comment.  It is so easy for us to think &quot;Why me?&quot; when things go wrong, and the quoted story is a wonderful cure for that from a wise physician.  

Another approach I try (sometimes successfully) is to ask &quot;Why me?&quot; about all the things that, through no fault of my own--everything, in other words--go right.  That question is equally un-answerable, and that helps me to avoid agonizing over the same question about things that go wrong.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m thinking of having our Sunday School take a two-week vacation so we can be sure to have your lessons available for our teachers!</p>
<p>Great lesson, Ardis.  And wonderful handling of those problematic &#8220;conversations&#8221; in the first few chapters.  Thanks for the insight.</p>
<p>And thanks to Researcher for that comment.  It is so easy for us to think &#8220;Why me?&#8221; when things go wrong, and the quoted story is a wonderful cure for that from a wise physician.  </p>
<p>Another approach I try (sometimes successfully) is to ask &#8220;Why me?&#8221; about all the things that, through no fault of my own&#8211;everything, in other words&#8211;go right.  That question is equally un-answerable, and that helps me to avoid agonizing over the same question about things that go wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: michelle</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25561</link>
		<dc:creator>michelle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 06:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your paragraph about your mission experience was my favorite part of this lesson. For me, it brought the core of the lesson home in a powerful way.

I&#039;ve been mulling over this concept a lot in my own life, trying to not let the seeming injustices shake me. That whole &#039;turned on its head&#039; reality is there for all of us. It&#039;s a hard lesson to learn that efforts toward righteousness do not mean a painless existence. 

I&#039;m reminded of Elder Maxwell who talked of when he was diagnosed with cancer, and then said something like, &quot;Of course. I shouldn&#039;t have been surprised.&quot; Discipleship is a demanding journey. The gospel just helps us keep a perspective on the pain...just as you captured so perfectly in your personal experience. 

Thanks again for that. It&#039;s a beautiful way to end my day.
m]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your paragraph about your mission experience was my favorite part of this lesson. For me, it brought the core of the lesson home in a powerful way.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been mulling over this concept a lot in my own life, trying to not let the seeming injustices shake me. That whole &#8216;turned on its head&#8217; reality is there for all of us. It&#8217;s a hard lesson to learn that efforts toward righteousness do not mean a painless existence. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m reminded of Elder Maxwell who talked of when he was diagnosed with cancer, and then said something like, &#8220;Of course. I shouldn&#8217;t have been surprised.&#8221; Discipleship is a demanding journey. The gospel just helps us keep a perspective on the pain&#8230;just as you captured so perfectly in your personal experience. </p>
<p>Thanks again for that. It&#8217;s a beautiful way to end my day.<br />
m</p>
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		<title>By: john willis</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25555</link>
		<dc:creator>john willis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 01:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wish the wife of the Bishop in Fresno who was just murdered and her six children could read your lesson plan and draw some comfort. A great lesson , well presented and senstive to the issues about if the book of Job is a &quot;real&quot; story. The moral and principles of the book are true regardless of wether or not it &quot;really&quot; happened.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish the wife of the Bishop in Fresno who was just murdered and her six children could read your lesson plan and draw some comfort. A great lesson , well presented and senstive to the issues about if the book of Job is a &#8220;real&#8221; story. The moral and principles of the book are true regardless of wether or not it &#8220;really&#8221; happened.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25554</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:50:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25554</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Researcher.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Researcher.</p>
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		<title>By: Researcher</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/29/in-our-ward-lesson-32-i-know-that-my-redeemer-liveth/comment-page-1/#comment-25551</link>
		<dc:creator>Researcher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Aug 2010 00:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8171#comment-25551</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I read something recently that relates to your third point, &quot;Questions to ask during adversity.&quot;

As some of your regular readers may know, my youngest son was born with a major heart defect. It is called HLHS and the only way of treating it is by a series of open heart surgeries, starting right after birth, or a heart transplant. I belong to a very helpful online support group. It can be a sad place sometimes; it is today, since one of the oldest HLHS kids, a 20 year old named Andrew, just had a major medical emergency and is fighting for his life in a children&#039;s hospital in the Upper Midwest.

The cause of HLHS is unknown, but it may be partly genetic, partly environmental.  Consequently, when children are diagnosed with the condition, many if not most parents spend a lot of time wondering, &quot;Why me? Why my child? Did I do something wrong?&quot;

One of the dads shared an experience recently. I hope it&#039;s okay to quote a large part of it. I&#039;ve edited just a bit.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The day we found out about [my son] I was devastated.  I thought it was ALL my fault.  I cried and cried because I had passed a heart condition on to my son, and this heart condition pronounced itself in a major [heart defect] for him.  Then when I was at my lowest point, when I was convinced my son&#039;s illness was my fault a doctor who has never seen my son, who had never seen my charts told me that I could drive myself crazy, or even sick worrying about whether this was my fault, or I could accept this was [my son]&#039;s journey and I could take his precious little hand and walk with him.  He asked me why it mattered where the heart defect came from, or if my heart condition had anything to do with it.  He asked me why I was so entranced with what caused this, and why I was not overjoyed that my son was so beautiful.  He walked out of the NICU, and I never saw him again, I never even got his name, but what he said to me stuck.  It does not matter why or how or even when it happened, [my son] is here, happy, vibrant, and so full of love that the scars and pain fade ...  I tell him all the time that he inspires me and that his scar is daddy&#039;s reminder of how lucky he is to be with him everyday.  I guess what I am saying is there are 2 ways I see it, I can either rack my brain and expend my energy with the what ifs, or I can just be present in the day I get with the son I always wanted.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read something recently that relates to your third point, &#8220;Questions to ask during adversity.&#8221;</p>
<p>As some of your regular readers may know, my youngest son was born with a major heart defect. It is called HLHS and the only way of treating it is by a series of open heart surgeries, starting right after birth, or a heart transplant. I belong to a very helpful online support group. It can be a sad place sometimes; it is today, since one of the oldest HLHS kids, a 20 year old named Andrew, just had a major medical emergency and is fighting for his life in a children&#8217;s hospital in the Upper Midwest.</p>
<p>The cause of HLHS is unknown, but it may be partly genetic, partly environmental.  Consequently, when children are diagnosed with the condition, many if not most parents spend a lot of time wondering, &#8220;Why me? Why my child? Did I do something wrong?&#8221;</p>
<p>One of the dads shared an experience recently. I hope it&#8217;s okay to quote a large part of it. I&#8217;ve edited just a bit.</p>
<blockquote><p>The day we found out about [my son] I was devastated.  I thought it was ALL my fault.  I cried and cried because I had passed a heart condition on to my son, and this heart condition pronounced itself in a major [heart defect] for him.  Then when I was at my lowest point, when I was convinced my son&#8217;s illness was my fault a doctor who has never seen my son, who had never seen my charts told me that I could drive myself crazy, or even sick worrying about whether this was my fault, or I could accept this was [my son]&#8216;s journey and I could take his precious little hand and walk with him.  He asked me why it mattered where the heart defect came from, or if my heart condition had anything to do with it.  He asked me why I was so entranced with what caused this, and why I was not overjoyed that my son was so beautiful.  He walked out of the NICU, and I never saw him again, I never even got his name, but what he said to me stuck.  It does not matter why or how or even when it happened, [my son] is here, happy, vibrant, and so full of love that the scars and pain fade &#8230;  I tell him all the time that he inspires me and that his scar is daddy&#8217;s reminder of how lucky he is to be with him everyday.  I guess what I am saying is there are 2 ways I see it, I can either rack my brain and expend my energy with the what ifs, or I can just be present in the day I get with the son I always wanted.</p></blockquote>
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