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	<title>Comments on: Witchcraft</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: g.wesley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25545</link>
		<dc:creator>g.wesley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Aug 2010 19:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[fascinating, ardis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fascinating, ardis.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25529</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:34:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That reply was too flip. I&#039;m sorry. 

I don&#039;t doubt that JFS believed that Satan exists and exercises power (&quot;the evil one has great power on the earth&quot;), whether through a supernatural imitation of priesthood or through cunning and deception makes little difference. 

I think it&#039;s saying too much to call it a &quot;&lt;em&gt;rampant&lt;/em&gt; exercise of supernatural power&quot; and I think it&#039;s reading too much into this particular article to see it as an in-depth theological analysis of the powers of evil. It seems to me to be a warning against belief in the kind of superstitious folk magic that was being practiced in &quot;-----,&quot; wherever that was, more than a warning against submitting to Satan to receive whatever power he might have to share. That is, I don&#039;t see that JFS claims that the &quot;witch of -----&quot; has received genuine supernatural evil power from Satan -- rather, he rebukes her and her gullible victims as fools who are toying with something that can lead to no good and has in the past led to great harm -- in this case, the damage is to good people&#039;s reputation rather than the fear and mayhem of his historical examples, but it&#039;s a matter of degree rather than kind. 

I think you are unwisely trying to collapse the degree. The &quot;unhappiness&quot; of the middle ground disappears if you acknowledge a sliding scale of superstition based on gullibility and deception at one end and whatever real supernatural power Satan may grant to one aspiring to be Master Mahan at the other.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That reply was too flip. I&#8217;m sorry. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t doubt that JFS believed that Satan exists and exercises power (&#8220;the evil one has great power on the earth&#8221;), whether through a supernatural imitation of priesthood or through cunning and deception makes little difference. </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s saying too much to call it a &#8220;<em>rampant</em> exercise of supernatural power&#8221; and I think it&#8217;s reading too much into this particular article to see it as an in-depth theological analysis of the powers of evil. It seems to me to be a warning against belief in the kind of superstitious folk magic that was being practiced in &#8220;&#8212;&#8211;,&#8221; wherever that was, more than a warning against submitting to Satan to receive whatever power he might have to share. That is, I don&#8217;t see that JFS claims that the &#8220;witch of &#8212;&#8211;&#8221; has received genuine supernatural evil power from Satan &#8212; rather, he rebukes her and her gullible victims as fools who are toying with something that can lead to no good and has in the past led to great harm &#8212; in this case, the damage is to good people&#8217;s reputation rather than the fear and mayhem of his historical examples, but it&#8217;s a matter of degree rather than kind. </p>
<p>I think you are unwisely trying to collapse the degree. The &#8220;unhappiness&#8221; of the middle ground disappears if you acknowledge a sliding scale of superstition based on gullibility and deception at one end and whatever real supernatural power Satan may grant to one aspiring to be Master Mahan at the other.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25528</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 16:06:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25528</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Your mileage varies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your mileage varies.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25527</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25527</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I admit that&#039;s how many people view witchcraft and associated practices, Ardis, but I&#039;m not sure that President Smith can go that far. If those who &quot;have become subject to the powers of the devil and are leagued with him in the work of deception among their fellows&quot; have no actual supernatural power other than deception, one is almost arguing that Satan has no supernatural power other than deception. But deception is not really a supernatural power, not does it even require an external agent -- people deceive and confuse themselves all the time.

So I think President Smith (and Mormons in general) are stuck on the unhappy middle ground of being unwilling to affirm the rampant exercise of supernatural power unaffiliated with the priesthood (withcraft, etc., whether formally linked to Satanic origin or not), but also unable to deny that Satan exists and exercises supernatural power.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I admit that&#8217;s how many people view witchcraft and associated practices, Ardis, but I&#8217;m not sure that President Smith can go that far. If those who &#8220;have become subject to the powers of the devil and are leagued with him in the work of deception among their fellows&#8221; have no actual supernatural power other than deception, one is almost arguing that Satan has no supernatural power other than deception. But deception is not really a supernatural power, not does it even require an external agent &#8212; people deceive and confuse themselves all the time.</p>
<p>So I think President Smith (and Mormons in general) are stuck on the unhappy middle ground of being unwilling to affirm the rampant exercise of supernatural power unaffiliated with the priesthood (withcraft, etc., whether formally linked to Satanic origin or not), but also unable to deny that Satan exists and exercises supernatural power.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Crow</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25517</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Crow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 22:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25517</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not that surprised. Just a generation before JFS, belief in magic was widespread among the very people who became members of the church. If you believe in the power of the priesthood, why not the counterfeit? I can almost see the logic. Particularly when the evidence of someone &quot;under its influence&quot; is right infront of you. People under duress will start to believe the oddest things.

As a teenager I knew devote LDS adults who feared for the &quot;very real&quot; power of witchcraft that was leading their children away from them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not that surprised. Just a generation before JFS, belief in magic was widespread among the very people who became members of the church. If you believe in the power of the priesthood, why not the counterfeit? I can almost see the logic. Particularly when the evidence of someone &#8220;under its influence&#8221; is right infront of you. People under duress will start to believe the oddest things.</p>
<p>As a teenager I knew devote LDS adults who feared for the &#8220;very real&#8221; power of witchcraft that was leading their children away from them.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25515</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 21:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My dad had some exposure, and that was in the 1950s!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dad had some exposure, and that was in the 1950s!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25514</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 20:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dave, I think he meant that witches have no objective power (i.e., can&#039;t &quot;bewitch&quot; someone by, say, commanding an evil spirit to possess him or by concocting a potion or casting a spell that could secretly bring a victim into the witch&#039;s power), but that through deception (a devilish characteristic) so-called witches gain a kind of second-hand power because gullible victims submit themselves to the will of witches who would be otherwise powerless. 

I think his position is pretty clear.

Hadn&#039;t thought about his exposure to magical practices in Hawaii, J. -- I&#039;ll bet you&#039;re right.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, I think he meant that witches have no objective power (i.e., can&#8217;t &#8220;bewitch&#8221; someone by, say, commanding an evil spirit to possess him or by concocting a potion or casting a spell that could secretly bring a victim into the witch&#8217;s power), but that through deception (a devilish characteristic) so-called witches gain a kind of second-hand power because gullible victims submit themselves to the will of witches who would be otherwise powerless. </p>
<p>I think his position is pretty clear.</p>
<p>Hadn&#8217;t thought about his exposure to magical practices in Hawaii, J. &#8212; I&#8217;ll bet you&#8217;re right.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25513</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25513</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would have to believe that JFS was exposed to indigenous magic in Hawaii and I&#039;ve read FP letters in the 1890s that delt fairly harshly with the lingering village seers from the earlier era.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would have to believe that JFS was exposed to indigenous magic in Hawaii and I&#8217;ve read FP letters in the 1890s that delt fairly harshly with the lingering village seers from the earlier era.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25512</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 19:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25512</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very nice find, Ardis. It&#039;s interesting how &quot;science&quot; is used as a test or standard to evaluate and debunk witchcraft, and obviously science is not going to affirm practitioners are employing actual supernatural powers. President Smith says the power of witches, etc., &quot;appears supernatural,&quot; implying it isn&#039;t really supernatural.

But then he also says that practitioners &quot;do possess a power&quot; and are &quot;leagued with [the devil] in the work of deception among their fellows.&quot; So it is just a little unclear what his position on witchcraft is: Did he think the the couple in the ward was falsely accused of practicing witchcraft because witches, etc., are all simple deceivers and employ no supernatural power? Or did he think they were wrongly accused because they weren&#039;t, as a matter of simple fact, witches (but someone else could have been)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice find, Ardis. It&#8217;s interesting how &#8220;science&#8221; is used as a test or standard to evaluate and debunk witchcraft, and obviously science is not going to affirm practitioners are employing actual supernatural powers. President Smith says the power of witches, etc., &#8220;appears supernatural,&#8221; implying it isn&#8217;t really supernatural.</p>
<p>But then he also says that practitioners &#8220;do possess a power&#8221; and are &#8220;leagued with [the devil] in the work of deception among their fellows.&#8221; So it is just a little unclear what his position on witchcraft is: Did he think the the couple in the ward was falsely accused of practicing witchcraft because witches, etc., are all simple deceivers and employ no supernatural power? Or did he think they were wrongly accused because they weren&#8217;t, as a matter of simple fact, witches (but someone else could have been)?</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/27/witchcraft/comment-page-1/#comment-25511</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Aug 2010 18:46:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=8093#comment-25511</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, kevinf, I&#039;m not plugged in enough to know about the opening of any film with that title. Fun to know, though, that I can be accidentally timely!

I just liked this piece, partly because it shocked me that any Mormon ward could have believed in classic witchcraft at the turn of the last century, and partly because JFS appealed to so many types of evidence, as David Y. said, to make his case.  I was also impressed that he gave not a hint that witchcraft was a female thing, either as believers or practitioners -- his opening example may have been a woman, but there&#039;s no whiff of making the issue one of controlling or objecting to women&#039;s behavior, when modern proponents of the occult frequently claim that suppression of witchcraft is a feminist issue.

Thank you for your comments, funny and serious. The breadth of topics that fall into Mormon history is amazing, isn&#039;t it?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, kevinf, I&#8217;m not plugged in enough to know about the opening of any film with that title. Fun to know, though, that I can be accidentally timely!</p>
<p>I just liked this piece, partly because it shocked me that any Mormon ward could have believed in classic witchcraft at the turn of the last century, and partly because JFS appealed to so many types of evidence, as David Y. said, to make his case.  I was also impressed that he gave not a hint that witchcraft was a female thing, either as believers or practitioners &#8212; his opening example may have been a woman, but there&#8217;s no whiff of making the issue one of controlling or objecting to women&#8217;s behavior, when modern proponents of the occult frequently claim that suppression of witchcraft is a feminist issue.</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments, funny and serious. The breadth of topics that fall into Mormon history is amazing, isn&#8217;t it?</p>
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