Comments on: What an Irishman Thought of Us in 1851

By: David B

David B — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:47:26 +0000

You know, coming from a family with a long Roman Catholic history, i don’t know that anyone could say that the Catholic church was “controlling and domineering” of its members in the century before the 1960s. I know that my great-grandparents grew up in (late nineteenth century highly devout Catholic) homes where the Bible was one of the major sources of reading material, for example. There were, i’m sure, some dioceses where such micromanaging took place, but i’ve seen no evidence that such was the rule.

The rumors that flew around about Catholicism’s “evils” back then, actually, remind me rather pointedly of the rumors that fly around about Mormonism even now. We really ough to be careful about vectoring them further.

And i find rather little anti-Catholic sentiment in the pre-Utah history of the church–Catholicism doesn’t even seem to have been on the radar. It leads to an interesting question of where it came from.

By: Ardis E. Parshall

Ardis E. Parshall — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:35:15 +0000

Until very recently I liked to listen to a Seventh Day Adventist broadcast on Saturdays while I did desk work. No more. They had a program that ridiculed Mormonism — I don’t even remember now what aspect — with shots of the audience smiling condescendingly to accompany the minister’s more pointed ridicule. I’ve never watched them since.

If I didn’t realize before what was at risk by that behavior, Bookslinger, I do now.

By: Bookslinger

Bookslinger — Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:31:33 +0000

The writer does bring up an embarrassing aspect of LDS missionary preaching that endured into the 1950′s at least. It reminded me of something my mission president said to us back in the 1980′s. When he was a missionary (in the 1950′s I presume), the first lesson consisted of bashing the Catholic church. Not just teaching “The Apostasy” as is done now, but really going negative.

As illustrated in Joseph Smith’s account of the religious fervor in his area up through 1820, I suppose attacking the opposition was a common tactic for preachers of all denominations.

From what I’ve read in Journal of Discourses, the saints of the 19th century had bitter feelings towards Catholicism, more so than Protestantism. And if people today (Catholics and non-Catholics) understood better the nature of Catholicism in America prior to the 1960′s, (or prior to the 1980′s world-wide) they would better understand the reasons for anti-Catholic sentiment. In the 1960′s in the US (later elsewhere) the Catholic church underwent a reformation, part of which was to become less controlling and domineering of its members. For instance, lay people had not been allowed to read the Bible.

Today’s level of diplomacy and respect did not always exist in the church’s missionary system.

By: Clark

Clark — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 20:37:18 +0000

Alcohol as a sacrament beverage? When was that done away with? I guess after 1851, huh? (Sorry for the threadjack.)

I think the ring comment is supposed to be disparaging in that Irish Catholic priests were celibate, so being married meant the Elder wasn’t as holy or devout as a “real” priest.

Elder Wallace gets the last laugh though, as we hold his name and sacrifices for the gospel in sacred remembrance.

The nameless Irishman can return “to the vile dust from which he sprung; unwept, unhonored, and unsung.”

(I have a low opinion of those who seek to discredit the Church based on the economic status of those who preach it…)

By: Ardis E. Parshall

Ardis E. Parshall — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:45:59 +0000

I think you’re on the right track, David, with it being ginger ale or ginger beer, maybe Fentiman’s (it’s been around that long) or a home brew. Between the mild fermentation and the home-brew aspect, it probably was low-brow. Anne? Alison? David? any other readers from that part of the world who might be better at the cultural clues than I am?

By: David B

David B — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:16:39 +0000

Poking around a bit further, i find that Stone’s Original Green Ginger Wine, despite its name, is reddish. Now i’m very puzzled what it was referring to.

By: David B

David B — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:13:21 +0000

“Original ginger” puzzled me–i’m guessing it’s a reference to Stone’s Original Green Ginger Wine, which i find by googling. I’m curious whether that was seen as a low-class beverage, since that would seem to match the tone of the narrative.

I also find it interesting that Elder Wallace wearing a ring on his left hand was worth stressing–is this another poke that i don’t get, not having the same cultural background as the writer?

By: Ardis E. Parshall

Ardis E. Parshall — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:58:14 +0000

/groan/ These both are bad enough to appear in the Funny Bones collections!

By: Mark B.

Mark B. — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:57:04 +0000

That reminds me of the difference between an Irish wedding and an Irish funeral.

One less drunk.

Yeah, it should be “fewer” but that sounds too proper for a joke like this.

By: kevinf

kevinf — Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:31:07 +0000

Did you hear about the Irish 7 course meal? A six-pack and a boiled potato!