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	<title>Comments on: Concert Prayer</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19916</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19916</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think there&#039;s a big difference between how adults and small children would experience such a prayer.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there&#8217;s a big difference between how adults and small children would experience such a prayer.</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19915</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 16:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19915</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prayer circles continued outside of the temple until the early 20th century, and &quot;Lengthen Your Stride&quot; claims they weren&#039;t officially discontinued until 1978 (!).  

This piece of instruction:

&quot;If this learning as well as having prayer itself is your goal, the concert prayer has its place. If, however, the spiritual experience of prayer is your objective, quiet listening is the better form&quot;

Is very interesting in light of how prayers are said in the temple.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prayer circles continued outside of the temple until the early 20th century, and &#8220;Lengthen Your Stride&#8221; claims they weren&#8217;t officially discontinued until 1978 (!).  </p>
<p>This piece of instruction:</p>
<p>&#8220;If this learning as well as having prayer itself is your goal, the concert prayer has its place. If, however, the spiritual experience of prayer is your objective, quiet listening is the better form&#8221;</p>
<p>Is very interesting in light of how prayers are said in the temple.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19896</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 00:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19896</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[rameumptom, I do believe the temple model -- which is the prayer circle model, after all -- must have played a huge role in the familiarity of this kind of prayer, yes.

There are problems with your third paragraph, however: Neither Brigham Young nor anyone else discontinued prayer circles in Nauvoo (such circles continued through the 19th century in the west); although Emma&#039;s opposition to polygamy was reflected in the purity standards of the Relief Society, I think it is grossly unfair to say that she maneuvered for &quot;favors and power in the Church&quot; at any time, especially during preparations for going west; and her reasons for remaining behind had absolutely nothing to do with failure to obtain any hypothetical &quot;favors and power.&quot; This is all a misunderstanding of Emma&#039;s character, as well as of Brigham Young&#039;s consolidation of authority in Nauvoo.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rameumptom, I do believe the temple model &#8212; which is the prayer circle model, after all &#8212; must have played a huge role in the familiarity of this kind of prayer, yes.</p>
<p>There are problems with your third paragraph, however: Neither Brigham Young nor anyone else discontinued prayer circles in Nauvoo (such circles continued through the 19th century in the west); although Emma&#8217;s opposition to polygamy was reflected in the purity standards of the Relief Society, I think it is grossly unfair to say that she maneuvered for &#8220;favors and power in the Church&#8221; at any time, especially during preparations for going west; and her reasons for remaining behind had absolutely nothing to do with failure to obtain any hypothetical &#8220;favors and power.&#8221; This is all a misunderstanding of Emma&#8217;s character, as well as of Brigham Young&#8217;s consolidation of authority in Nauvoo.</p>
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		<title>By: rameumptom</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19893</link>
		<dc:creator>rameumptom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 22:52:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19893</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ardis,
Could this also be a remnant of the Nauvoo-era prayer circles that the Quorum of the Anointed had?

Some of those who had received their endowments in the Nauvoo era, gathered together at least weekly in someone&#039;s home to have a prayer circle, in which one would be the key voice, and the rest repeat the prayer.

This was discontinued later by Brigham Young, partially, I believe, because Emma Smith tried to use her clout as an &quot;elect lady&quot; and member of the Quorum of the Anointed to obtain favors and power in the Church going west.  When BY would not give her any special consideration, she remained behind.

Is it possible that similar prayers expanded to other meetings?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis,<br />
Could this also be a remnant of the Nauvoo-era prayer circles that the Quorum of the Anointed had?</p>
<p>Some of those who had received their endowments in the Nauvoo era, gathered together at least weekly in someone&#8217;s home to have a prayer circle, in which one would be the key voice, and the rest repeat the prayer.</p>
<p>This was discontinued later by Brigham Young, partially, I believe, because Emma Smith tried to use her clout as an &#8220;elect lady&#8221; and member of the Quorum of the Anointed to obtain favors and power in the Church going west.  When BY would not give her any special consideration, she remained behind.</p>
<p>Is it possible that similar prayers expanded to other meetings?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Taylor</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19868</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 05:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19868</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ditto to Hunter&#039;s comment.  At least you present the opportunity to rise out of the mental ooze for a moment.  Thank you for doing this for me so often!

We have a gospel doctrine teacher in our ward who uses choral readings to good effect, a practice encouraged in Teaching, No Greater Call.

This article reminds me of a couple of things.  Ardis, do you recollect if Brigham said something about how we needed to come to the point that those in the congregation would silently pray for the same things the one called on to pray would audibly ask?  And, on the other hand, during the journey across Nebraska to Winter Quarters, didn&#039;t he speak of the problem of members &quot;praying against counsel&quot;? 

Dr. Nibley discusses the group expressions found in the coronation ceremony of King Mosiah and compares them to those found in the coronation of a king in exile in Babylon.  Shadows of something.

Hope we all get on the same page sooner rather than later.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ditto to Hunter&#8217;s comment.  At least you present the opportunity to rise out of the mental ooze for a moment.  Thank you for doing this for me so often!</p>
<p>We have a gospel doctrine teacher in our ward who uses choral readings to good effect, a practice encouraged in Teaching, No Greater Call.</p>
<p>This article reminds me of a couple of things.  Ardis, do you recollect if Brigham said something about how we needed to come to the point that those in the congregation would silently pray for the same things the one called on to pray would audibly ask?  And, on the other hand, during the journey across Nebraska to Winter Quarters, didn&#8217;t he speak of the problem of members &#8220;praying against counsel&#8221;? </p>
<p>Dr. Nibley discusses the group expressions found in the coronation ceremony of King Mosiah and compares them to those found in the coronation of a king in exile in Babylon.  Shadows of something.</p>
<p>Hope we all get on the same page sooner rather than later.</p>
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		<title>By: Maurine</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19867</link>
		<dc:creator>Maurine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 05:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for clarifying my question. It makes sense now, but it seemed very foreign to me when I saw it in the minutes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for clarifying my question. It makes sense now, but it seemed very foreign to me when I saw it in the minutes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19861</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 22:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19861</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[MarkB., yup, &quot;suggestive&quot; it was -- another warning to know how people of the past used a word before interpreting a document. I&#039;d like to learn more about the lining-out of hymns, too, in our tradition. I know how it worked in general, but would like to find some specific point in Mormon history where it was done, and find out whether it was because there weren&#039;t enough hymnals, or people couldn&#039;t read, or it was just the tradition, or what.

I&#039;ll put that on my to-do list and win Hunter&#039;s admiration again later! :) Thanks, Hunter -- and enjoy The Office!

Anne, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/08/10/sacrament-gems/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sacrament Gems&lt;/a&gt; became a feature of Sunday School in 1910, so concert prayers and Sacrament Gems and concert recitations were all going on at the same time for at least 40 years. I suspect that rather than wanting to end concert prayers, the Gems were a further development of that common and accepted method of teaching in Sunday School.  But you can tell I&#039;m trying to understand the idea by connecting a very limited number of dots. The picture may very well change when more dots are found.

Thanks for your responses, friends.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MarkB., yup, &#8220;suggestive&#8221; it was &#8212; another warning to know how people of the past used a word before interpreting a document. I&#8217;d like to learn more about the lining-out of hymns, too, in our tradition. I know how it worked in general, but would like to find some specific point in Mormon history where it was done, and find out whether it was because there weren&#8217;t enough hymnals, or people couldn&#8217;t read, or it was just the tradition, or what.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll put that on my to-do list and win Hunter&#8217;s admiration again later! <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Thanks, Hunter &#8212; and enjoy The Office!</p>
<p>Anne, <a href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/08/10/sacrament-gems/" rel="nofollow">Sacrament Gems</a> became a feature of Sunday School in 1910, so concert prayers and Sacrament Gems and concert recitations were all going on at the same time for at least 40 years. I suspect that rather than wanting to end concert prayers, the Gems were a further development of that common and accepted method of teaching in Sunday School.  But you can tell I&#8217;m trying to understand the idea by connecting a very limited number of dots. The picture may very well change when more dots are found.</p>
<p>Thanks for your responses, friends.</p>
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		<title>By: Anne (U.K)</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19859</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne (U.K)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 21:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19859</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Goodness, that&#039;s fascinating. Is there any chance that the Sacrament Gem was an attempt to slowly wean us off this practice?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Goodness, that&#8217;s fascinating. Is there any chance that the Sacrament Gem was an attempt to slowly wean us off this practice?</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19857</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19857</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This was fascinating!  I had no idea about any of this.  As I&#039;ve previously stated, my only experience has been about choral readings of scripture passages.  That, and having a small child repeat back a prayer uttered by the parent.  Thanks for this.

This post also highlights, I think, the difference between you and me, Ardis.  You read an interesting fact about, say, concert prayer, and you resolve to find out more information, you take down the info, and then organize what you find.  As for me, I read a new fact and say, &quot;Huh, that&#039;d be interesting to find out more about that.&quot;  And then I remember something inane like the fact that there&#039;s a new episode of The Office on tonight and I forget all about it, as well as my resolution to dig in and find out more.

/sighs]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was fascinating!  I had no idea about any of this.  As I&#8217;ve previously stated, my only experience has been about choral readings of scripture passages.  That, and having a small child repeat back a prayer uttered by the parent.  Thanks for this.</p>
<p>This post also highlights, I think, the difference between you and me, Ardis.  You read an interesting fact about, say, concert prayer, and you resolve to find out more information, you take down the info, and then organize what you find.  As for me, I read a new fact and say, &#8220;Huh, that&#8217;d be interesting to find out more about that.&#8221;  And then I remember something inane like the fact that there&#8217;s a new episode of The Office on tonight and I forget all about it, as well as my resolution to dig in and find out more.</p>
<p>/sighs</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/02/19/concert-prayer/comment-page-1/#comment-19856</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Feb 2010 20:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=5839#comment-19856</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting post, Ardis.

Did that seminary textbook from the 1930s really use the adjective &quot;suggestive&quot;?  If so, we&#039;ll have to get the language mavens to tell us when that word became a euphemism that you likely would not use to describe a prayer.

This also conjured up an old memory of the practice of &quot;lining out&quot; hymns--never done in any church meeting I&#039;ve ever attended, but a venerable practice, according to &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lining_out&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia&lt;/a&gt;.  I vaguely recall (like everything else) that Bill Cosby may have mentioned the practice in one of his stand-up comedy sketches.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting post, Ardis.</p>
<p>Did that seminary textbook from the 1930s really use the adjective &#8220;suggestive&#8221;?  If so, we&#8217;ll have to get the language mavens to tell us when that word became a euphemism that you likely would not use to describe a prayer.</p>
<p>This also conjured up an old memory of the practice of &#8220;lining out&#8221; hymns&#8211;never done in any church meeting I&#8217;ve ever attended, but a venerable practice, according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lining_out" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia</a>.  I vaguely recall (like everything else) that Bill Cosby may have mentioned the practice in one of his stand-up comedy sketches.</p>
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