Please, though, let’s not push this line of thought here. I don’t want to list all the reasons I think this is not true doctrine because it makes me appear to be in opposition to good men who preached it once upon a time. But neither do I want to be made to be a bulletin board for ideas I believe are not legitimate LDS doctrine. The easiest solution is acknowledge that the whole issue has no place in the upcoming lesson, and not debate it here.

*I* think that *you* think that you’re pulling one over on stupid ol’ me, because even as you thank me “for keeping us focused on the lesson plan and not … straying into personal areas,” you blatantly post screens full of quotations on what is *your* “personal area” and which I have told you quite plainly I do not believe. Further, you write with the assumption that this idea, imported from apostate Christianity, will in fact be “pronounced as official doctrine.” I must have missed the announcement of your authority to make that pronouncement.

Do you really think I’m too dense to realize what you’re doing?

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Mark E Peterson , Noah and the Flood, 1982 quotes Joseph Fielding Smith who quotes Brigham Young, Orsan Pratt, John Taylor & Charles W Penrose. Also,

“Why baptize the earth?

The earth is a living thing. Is there not great significance in the scriptural references to the earth? While Enoch and the Lord discussed the wickedness of men, “it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?

“And when Enoch heard the earth mourn, he wept, and cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, wilt thou not have compassion upon the earth? Wilt thou not bless the children of Noah?

“And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the floods.” (Moses 7:48-50.)

Note these words coming out of the bowels of the earth: “When will my Creator sanctify me that I may rest and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?” Is that allegory? Would God deal in allegory in circumstances like these? Was not the voice real?

How are men cleansed of their sins? By baptism, and not only by water, but also by fire and the Holy Ghost. John the Baptist explained: “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.” (Matt. 3:11.)

and

The Savior spoke of this to the Nephites when He said:
“Behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world, to save the world from sin. Therefore, whoso repenteth and cometh unto me as a little child, him will I receive, for of such is the kingdom of God. Behold, for such I have laid down my life, and taken it up again; therefore repent, and come unto me ye ends of the earth, and be saved.” (3 Ne. 9:18-22.)

Should not the earth—a living thing—be similarly sanctified? It was baptized with water in the flood. Eventually it will be baptized with fire, thus becoming cleansed and sanctified, to be made into a celestial sphere as the eternal home for the righteous. The Lord has told us: “The place where God resides is a great Urim and Thummim. This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s.” (D&C 130:8-9.)

When the Lord gave the revelation found in D&C 88 of the Doctrine and Convenants, He made this further explanation: “And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.” (D&C 88:25-26.)
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Joseph Smith (Alma P. Burton) Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1977; also same quote in Mormon Doctrine referring to Teachings, P. 12

“Noah was born to save seed of everything when the earth was WASHED OF ITS WICKEDNESS BY THE FLOOD…”
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John A Widstoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, 1943

“The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents, they relate that which they have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to them by revelation.”

and

“Latter-day Saints look upon the earth as a living organism, one which is gloriously filling “the measure of its creation.” They look upon the flood as a baptism of the earth, symbolizing a cleansing of the impurities of the past, and the beginning of a new life. This has been repeatedly taught by the leaders of the Church. The deluge was an immersion of the earth in water (D. & C. 88:25; Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 1:274; Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 603; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 1:331).

Though the whole of the earth was covered with water, the depth was immaterial. When a person is baptized, it does not matter how far under the water he is brought, nor whether every part of him is at the same depth. The essential part of the symbolism is that he should be completely immersed.”
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Ardis has made an important point about being cautious with unsupported “doctines” and Elder Widstoe’s comment about inspired writers relating to what they have seen or heard supports her. It will be exciting when all the answers are revealed. This subject will have to be a personal belief issue until it is pronounced as official doctrine.

You may be interested in an article about speculation by Orson Scott Card on Mormon Times.
http://www.mormontimes.com/mormon_voices/orson_scott_card/?id=12536

Thanks, Ardis, for keeping us focused on the lesson plan and not, as Gospel Doctrine teachers, straying into personal areas.

I don’t know how ancient baptism is (I’ve heard arguments both ways, and would just as soon not hash that out here), but in either case I can accept the flood as a type of baptism (as foreshadowing Christ, that is, if not as an actual ordinance for a fallen planet). I can go that far with you.

I appreciate that this idea of flood-as-baptism was taught by some early church leaders despite its absence from scriptural record and a lack of any appeal to Restoration revelation. I don’t think it is tenable as doctrine, and I think its absence from modern church leaders’ teachings frees me from any obligation to accept or to teach it as doctrine.

As I’ve noted before, this idea is not relevant to the upcoming Sunday School lesson, and there is no reason for a teacher to mention it — more strongly put, there is reason for a teacher not to bring it up. If a class member brings it up, I will acknowledge that it is an idea taught by a few early church leaders, noting that it is not sustained by modern church leaders, and shift discussion back to more certain channels.

I guess I’m different from many Latter-day Saints. I would rather remain ignorant of, even disbelieve, some dodgey idea that might actually be true, than to accept as truth some false idea. Whether or not the earth needed baptism, whether or not Noah’s flood was such a baptism, is sketchy and not relevant to my understanding of the plan of salvation. Therefore, it does not interest me.

I would have made one lousy gnostic.

THE DELUGE: A BAPTISM

When the scholars made their explanatory notes in the Jerusalem Bible concerning the flood, they related the deluge to a baptism. They said that “Noah’s salvation pre-figures the saving waters of baptism.” Their interpretation is interesting, inasmuch as our own leaders said a similar thing. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:

“Now a word as to the reason for the flood. It was the baptism of the earth, and that had to be by immersion. If the water did not cover the entire earth, then it was not baptized, for the baptism of the Lord is not pouring or sprinkling. These forms are strictly man made and not a part of the gospel ordinances.” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:320.)

President Smith then quoted from the teachings of some of the presidents and apostles of the Church, including the following:

President Brigham Young: “It [the earth] has already had a baptism. You who have read the Bible must know that that is Bible doctrine. What does it matter if it is not in the same words that I use, it is none the less true that it was baptized for the remission of sins. The Lord said, `I will deluge (or immerse) the earth in water for the remission of the sins of the people’; or if you will allow me to express myself in a familiar style, to kill all the vermin that were nitting, and breeding, and polluting its body; it was cleansed of its filthiness; and soaked in the water, as long as some of our people ought to soak. The Lord baptized the earth for the remission of sins, and it has been once cleansed for the filthiness that has gone out of it, which was in the inhabitants who dwelt upon its face.” (Journal of Discourses 1:274.)

“`Brethren and sisters, I wish you to continue in your ways of welldoing; I desire that your minds may be opened more and more to see and understand things as they are. This earth, in its present condition and situation, is not a fit habitation for the sanctified; but it abides the law of its creation, has been baptized with water, will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost, and by-and-by will be prepared for the faithful to dwell upon.” (JD 8:83.)

Elder Orson Pratt: “Another great change happened nearly two thousand years after the earth was made. It was baptized by water. A great flow of water came, the great deep was broken up, the windows of heaven were opened from on high, and the waters prevailed upon the face of the earth, sweeping away all wickedness and transgression—a similitude of baptism for the remission of sins. God requires the children of men to be baptized. What for? For the remission of sins. So he required our globe to be baptized by a flow of water, and all of its sins were washed away, not one sin remaining.” (JD 21:323.)

“Both man and the earth are redeemed from the original sin without ordinances; but soon we find new sins committed by the fallen sons of Adam, and the earth became corrupted before the Lord by their transgressions. It needs redeeming ordinances for these second transgressions. The Lord ordained baptism, or immersion of the earth in water, as a justifying ordinance.” (JD 1:291.)

President John Taylor: “The earth, as a part of the creation of God, has fulfilled and will fulfill the measure of its creation. It has been baptized by water, it will be baptized by fire; it will be purified and become celestial, and be a fit place for celestial bodies to inhabit.” (Times and Seasons 5:408-9.)

President Charles W. Penrose: “Thus the inhabitants of the earth with the few exceptions that are beyond the power of redemption will eventually be saved. And the globe on which they passed their probation, having kept the law of its being, will come into remembrance before its Maker. It will die like its products. But it will be quickened again and resurrected in the celestial glory.

“It has been born of water, it will also be born of the Spirit, purified by fire from all the corruptions that once defiled it, developed into its perfections as one of the family of worlds fitted for the Creator’s presence, all its latent light awakened into scintillating action, it will move up into its place among the orbs governed by celestial time, and shining `like a sea of glass mingled with fire,’ every tint and color of the heavenly bow radiating from its surface, the ransomed of the Lord will dwell upon it.” (The Contributor 2:364.)

My question is: When are you going to come substitute teach in our Ward?!

Good stuff. Thanks.