Comments on: In Our Ward: Lesson 2: “Thou Wast Chosen Before Thou Wast Born”

By: J. Stapley

J. Stapley — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:50:06 +0000

Great lesson, Ardis. I imagine that the Benson quote won’t be included fifty years from know. It is one of the quotes that we will probably look back on as an interesting historical datum on 20th century Millennialism.

By: Mark B.

Mark B. — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:15:38 +0000

When thinking about being “preserved” to come to earth at this time, just remember that the latter days are also to be times of great wickedness.

Maybe you are here now because you’re likely to fulfill that part of the prophecies!

By: Happy Lost Sheep

Happy Lost Sheep — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 19:05:25 +0000

I really like that you mentioned the pop culture issue in this lesson. There is a lot of folklore floating around in the church. Your visual aid is very appropriate; this problem has a new twist now with the continual growth of gospel themed movies.

I have frequently heard the story about pre-mortal covenants and the trials and tribulations. Some people I know actually prolong their trials because of their belief they are some kind of foreordained lessons, similar to what you described in comment #8.

I agree also with John Willis # 4. The last thing I want my kids to believe is their potential in life is somehow limited by conditions in their pre-mortal existence, or that problems they face in life cannot be challenged because it is their fate.

I wonder if the CES folks are aware of these kinds of things and if they have ever considered as part of the lesson manual to include clarification on these myths?

By: Hunter

Hunter — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:43:00 +0000

OK, that does it. I’m moving to Ardis’ ward. (Or, maybe she could arrange to have her lesson live-streamed over the internet??)

By: ClarkGoble

ClarkGoble — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:30:53 +0000

Good point Ardis, although sometimes I like to think of some folklore as a kind of “oral torah” akin to what the Jews had. Typically it reflects a lot of theological thinking but also it definitely does go beyond scripture. So I don’t discount it quite as much as others do – there’s a lot of spiritual experience among the members reflected in it. That said there’s also a lot of garbage and often it is ideas from books muddled by peoples misunderstanding. (Books on NDEs being some of the worst)

By: Ardis E. Parshall

Ardis E. Parshall — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 15:45:04 +0000

We made the point in our discussion that the folklore was not necessarily wrong, that it was extrapolated from scripture in many cases, but the fact of extrapolation meant that it was uncertain. Pepole can believe just about any crazy thing they want to believe, but we ought to be clear about where our beliefs come from, and which are scripture and which are not. I brought this up in our class because I've noticed how often in the past few months the answer offered to a question starts with the folklore and then builds from there -- "Since we know that we chose all our own earthly trials in the preexistence, then it's really our own fault that we struggle with [fill in the blank]." Okay, if you want to believe that, okay -- but this man-made philosophy allows you to say, too, that "it's really her own fault that she is tempted by drugs and alcohol -- she didn't have to choose that trial" or "it's really her own fault that her husband beats her -- she chose that." I have a real problem with that.

By: m&m

m&m — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 07:11:31 +0000

I hadn’t ever really thought about the self-centered element of some of the premortal folklore. Interesting insight.

And yet, while the ‘generals in heaven’ notion has been repudiated, even in the lesson there was a quote that is not completely dissimilar — from Pres. Benson about being ‘a marked generation’ and being ‘saved for the final inning.’ We aren’t told about how that relates to the premortal experience, but it still has some of the overtones of chosenness and our important role in this dispensation relative to others.

So perhaps not all the folklore is w/o some basis in something more substantial.

Thoughts?

By: Kade

Kade — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 03:50:16 +0000

Wow! Can I just say how impressed I am that you actually type out your whole lesson–someone as bright as you paying that much attention to your teaching is exemplary. Lucky ward.

By: Sanford

Sanford — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 02:41:17 +0000

I was an impressionable teen when Saturday’s Warrior came out and my perception of the gospel and the preexistence was hugely influenced by it. Over the years I have discarded those early ideas and taken an approach like the one you take in your lesson that there is little in the way of scriptural support for such an expansive view. But those early ideas die hard. Your class is lucky to have you.

By: John Willis

John Willis — Mon, 11 Jan 2010 01:58:58 +0000

In our lesson today I expressed my view that while the scriptures in Moses and Abraham clearly indicate that great men (and women) are foreordained for future callings (Abraham, Moses, Joseph Smith, Thomas S. Monson) it is going beyond the scriptures to say that most persons “placement” in this mortal life is detemined by what we did or did not do in the pre-existence. I think that the Saturday’s Warrior and Added Upon approach, while entertaining is not really justifed by the scriptures.

In particular in a post -1978 ,Offical declaration 2 era there is a need to repudiate to notion that Black men were denied the priesthodd because of their preformance in the preexistence.

We really know very little about the process by which most pre-mortal spirits are “placed” into various situations.

I’m not sure how well my comments went over. I sensed some hostility but I did give people something to think about. But I also mentioned an old cartoon by Calvin Grondhal in which a group of people are standing around a newborn infant’s crib. They are saying “oh you sweet little spirit straight from the pre existence what message do you bing us?” The next frame has a loud voice from the crib saying “DO YOUR HOME AND VISITING TEACHING!!!”