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	<title>Comments on: Gospel Doctrine Lesson 35: Reporting on My Lesson</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Ziff</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14976</link>
		<dc:creator>Ziff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for posting this, Ardis. I&#039;m comforted to hear that even a teacher as ultra-prepared as you is sometimes thrown a question she doesn&#039;t expect.

Also, I love your pointed politically themed questions: made me &lt;i&gt;laugh&lt;/i&gt;!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this, Ardis. I&#8217;m comforted to hear that even a teacher as ultra-prepared as you is sometimes thrown a question she doesn&#8217;t expect.</p>
<p>Also, I love your pointed politically themed questions: made me <i>laugh</i>!</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14967</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 14:18:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14967</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You protest my straying into political discourse with a gospel end in mind, while feeling free to stump here for a political philosophy you suspect I do not support, &lt;em&gt;after&lt;/em&gt; having explicitly called me to repentance. Bless your heart, sam.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You protest my straying into political discourse with a gospel end in mind, while feeling free to stump here for a political philosophy you suspect I do not support, <em>after</em> having explicitly called me to repentance. Bless your heart, sam.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14965</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 13:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14965</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think your political questions were a nice way to get people to think about it in a personal context.

I&#039;m probably not going too far out on a limb to assume you don&#039;t identify with the politics of people who you -believe- make political excuses like that.

Certainly some people feel that way generally, and never want to help others. But then those people need to repent. Just as do teachers who use an opportunity to lecture or interject politics into a gospel lesson And I&#039;ve sat in waaaaaaay too many pro-Republican interjections before that I felt the same way for. In fact, a previous ward I lived in, in a small Utah town removed it&#039;s GD teacher after many ward members complained about his interjecting Republican politics into the lessons. And the people that complained agreed with his politics!

Anyway, what I wanted to say, the point you&#039;re trying to make with your questions regarding helping your neighbor, etc. is a good one (ham handed politics as you already noted, not so good). I do think you&#039;re doing a discredit to those who may disagree with you politically, however. 

A person can believe that individuals, organizations, and especially churches have a moral obligation to help those in their area who are in need. But that has nothing to do with requiring government to fulfill that roll in your (Church&#039;s, family&#039;s, neighbor&#039;s, friend&#039;s) behalf. 

If government did everything some people say it does, we wouldn&#039;t have too much of a problem. But generally I see government saying one thing and doing a little bit to claim it&#039;s fulfilling it&#039;s responsibilities, while actively enriching or benefiting those very individuals who claim to serve in our behalf.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think your political questions were a nice way to get people to think about it in a personal context.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m probably not going too far out on a limb to assume you don&#8217;t identify with the politics of people who you -believe- make political excuses like that.</p>
<p>Certainly some people feel that way generally, and never want to help others. But then those people need to repent. Just as do teachers who use an opportunity to lecture or interject politics into a gospel lesson And I&#8217;ve sat in waaaaaaay too many pro-Republican interjections before that I felt the same way for. In fact, a previous ward I lived in, in a small Utah town removed it&#8217;s GD teacher after many ward members complained about his interjecting Republican politics into the lessons. And the people that complained agreed with his politics!</p>
<p>Anyway, what I wanted to say, the point you&#8217;re trying to make with your questions regarding helping your neighbor, etc. is a good one (ham handed politics as you already noted, not so good). I do think you&#8217;re doing a discredit to those who may disagree with you politically, however. </p>
<p>A person can believe that individuals, organizations, and especially churches have a moral obligation to help those in their area who are in need. But that has nothing to do with requiring government to fulfill that roll in your (Church&#8217;s, family&#8217;s, neighbor&#8217;s, friend&#8217;s) behalf. </p>
<p>If government did everything some people say it does, we wouldn&#8217;t have too much of a problem. But generally I see government saying one thing and doing a little bit to claim it&#8217;s fulfilling it&#8217;s responsibilities, while actively enriching or benefiting those very individuals who claim to serve in our behalf.</p>
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		<title>By: smb</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14964</link>
		<dc:creator>smb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[well done, Ardis.  As I listened to this lesson again it occurred to me that this was potentially a story about the sufferings of the poor and unworthy. So I piped up with something along the lines of your closing comment.  No one seemed angry, and the teacher opened up with a surprising story about the challenges of caring for the poor--a statement that humanized him wonderfully and surprisingly.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well done, Ardis.  As I listened to this lesson again it occurred to me that this was potentially a story about the sufferings of the poor and unworthy. So I piped up with something along the lines of your closing comment.  No one seemed angry, and the teacher opened up with a surprising story about the challenges of caring for the poor&#8211;a statement that humanized him wonderfully and surprisingly.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14963</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 12:04:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Depends on who was doing the counting, and who they counted, and when. 

The Gentiles claimed the Mormons were foreign-born, with ideas alien to American government. The Mormons said no, the great majority of Mormons were native-born. The Gentiles countered by saying that was only true if you counted the flocks of very young children, that the majority of voting-age adults were foreign-born. The Mormons retorted that the Gentiles were unfairly painting Utah as un-American, controlled by foreign philosophies and behaviors, and presented evidence showing that virtually all civil and ecclesiastical leaders were American-born.

I&#039;m not familiar with the absolute numbers (maybe someone else can dredge them up); I&#039;m only familiar with how the various partisan interests used those numbers to further their own agendas.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Depends on who was doing the counting, and who they counted, and when. </p>
<p>The Gentiles claimed the Mormons were foreign-born, with ideas alien to American government. The Mormons said no, the great majority of Mormons were native-born. The Gentiles countered by saying that was only true if you counted the flocks of very young children, that the majority of voting-age adults were foreign-born. The Mormons retorted that the Gentiles were unfairly painting Utah as un-American, controlled by foreign philosophies and behaviors, and presented evidence showing that virtually all civil and ecclesiastical leaders were American-born.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not familiar with the absolute numbers (maybe someone else can dredge them up); I&#8217;m only familiar with how the various partisan interests used those numbers to further their own agendas.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Crow</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14960</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Crow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 06:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14960</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Correct me if I&#039;m wrong, but wasn&#039;t there a time a few years after this that a vast majority of Utahns were immigrants? Or was that just propaganda placed in eastern newspapers?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but wasn&#8217;t there a time a few years after this that a vast majority of Utahns were immigrants? Or was that just propaganda placed in eastern newspapers?</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14956</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14956</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, manaen, that was pretty much my intention, to cause people to wrestle a little. I know there need to be rules and limits for orderly and fair stewardship, and I would never advocate an anything-goes policy. But I think sometimes people&#039;s personal policies are so rigid that they would see &quot;destitute immigrant&quot; today before they saw &quot;brother,&quot; even in the case of these two handcart companies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, manaen, that was pretty much my intention, to cause people to wrestle a little. I know there need to be rules and limits for orderly and fair stewardship, and I would never advocate an anything-goes policy. But I think sometimes people&#8217;s personal policies are so rigid that they would see &#8220;destitute immigrant&#8221; today before they saw &#8220;brother,&#8221; even in the case of these two handcart companies.</p>
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		<title>By: manaen</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14955</link>
		<dc:creator>manaen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2009 00:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14955</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;I am an American. If those immigrants came here expecting ME to take care of them, they can turn around and go home.&lt;/em&gt;
.
I&#039;ve been wrestling lately with the idea that we US citizens erect fences and send around border patrollers to force our spirit sibs to live in much worse circumstances than we enjoy -- or that we say to buy local products to protect the job of our nearby brother or sister and so eliminate the job of our farther-away one, who our fences and patrols have caused to live more poorly.
.
&lt;em&gt;But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.&lt;/em&gt;  -- D&amp;C 49:20
.
&lt;em&gt;For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things&lt;/em&gt;  -- D&amp;C 78:6]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I am an American. If those immigrants came here expecting ME to take care of them, they can turn around and go home.</em><br />
.<br />
I&#8217;ve been wrestling lately with the idea that we US citizens erect fences and send around border patrollers to force our spirit sibs to live in much worse circumstances than we enjoy &#8212; or that we say to buy local products to protect the job of our nearby brother or sister and so eliminate the job of our farther-away one, who our fences and patrols have caused to live more poorly.<br />
.<br />
<em>But it is not given that one man should possess that which is above another, wherefore the world lieth in sin.</em>  &#8212; D&amp;C 49:20<br />
.<br />
<em>For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things</em>  &#8212; D&amp;C 78:6</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14954</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14954</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Still, I probably shouldn’t have done that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Wrong.

When all you do is hold a mirror up to peoples&#039; faces, they have no right to complain about the face that is looking back at them.  Part of what might have made people so uncomfortable is that the truth is sometimes hard to bear.  

You did the right thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Still, I probably shouldn’t have done that.</p></blockquote>
<p>Wrong.</p>
<p>When all you do is hold a mirror up to peoples&#8217; faces, they have no right to complain about the face that is looking back at them.  Part of what might have made people so uncomfortable is that the truth is sometimes hard to bear.  </p>
<p>You did the right thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/09/27/gospel-doctrine-lesson-35-reporting-on-my-lesson/comment-page-1/#comment-14947</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 20:54:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=3639#comment-14947</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the &lt;em&gt;idea&lt;/em&gt; of asking people to think about how their 2009 attitudes might have affected their response to the M&amp;W rescue -- and by extension, how their sympathetic response to the M&amp;W rescue could inform their 2009 attitudes -- was not bad. My execution of it was too clumsy, though. 

It&#039;s one thing to pose those as teasers on a thoroughly voluntary blog, and I&#039;m very glad so many of you got a kick out of them. Laugh, and pass &#039;em on, and God bless.

But as Geoff B. points out, Gospel Doctrine is not the place to be quite so blatantly political. (Geoff, I did say in the OP that this point was one of my trouble spots, so I recognized what you meant. I guess I really knew it from the beginning, or else I wouldn&#039;t have recognized the need to apologize to my class in advance.) With more thought, and with less eagerness to set myself up as being oh-so-clever, I probably could have come up with a way to move people to think about some of those ideas in a less partisan way, more suitable for Sunday School.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the <em>idea</em> of asking people to think about how their 2009 attitudes might have affected their response to the M&#038;W rescue &#8212; and by extension, how their sympathetic response to the M&#038;W rescue could inform their 2009 attitudes &#8212; was not bad. My execution of it was too clumsy, though. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s one thing to pose those as teasers on a thoroughly voluntary blog, and I&#8217;m very glad so many of you got a kick out of them. Laugh, and pass &#8216;em on, and God bless.</p>
<p>But as Geoff B. points out, Gospel Doctrine is not the place to be quite so blatantly political. (Geoff, I did say in the OP that this point was one of my trouble spots, so I recognized what you meant. I guess I really knew it from the beginning, or else I wouldn&#8217;t have recognized the need to apologize to my class in advance.) With more thought, and with less eagerness to set myself up as being oh-so-clever, I probably could have come up with a way to move people to think about some of those ideas in a less partisan way, more suitable for Sunday School.</p>
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