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	<title>Comments on: I Have a Question, 1893</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Clark Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11998</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 19:12:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Dang I had a big comment written and then Safari crashed.

I&#039;ll just say that while I think most of the idea comes more from Kabbalism and Judaism read back into Mormonism there is more to 19th century views than you suggest Ardis. (The indirect claim about Eliza Snow by her brother, for instance)  I find it completely wrong, of course.  But I also think it goes well beyond what you suggest.  That is more than what certain readings of the A/G theory suggest.  

I know Geoff is a big proponent but it appears primarily based upon ethical concerns and concerns about strong libertarian free will such that a &lt;i&gt;final&lt;/i&gt; judgment is even ontologically possible.  (i.e. a final judgments suggests an essential character)

Those attempting proof texts though tend to try and find plural uses of the term &quot;probation&quot; (often in late secondary &quot;recollections&quot; of things Joseph Smith said).  They then take the extra step of arguing this entails reincarnation which seems dubious logic at best.  After all it can easily be interpreted to mean that everyone after judgment continues to progress and that progression is a new probation but not a new mortal life.  (i.e. the rejection that you are immediately exalted at resurrection with no progression or learning or grades)

Typically talk of MMP tends to conflate lots of different issues though - especially when engaging in proof texts.  (IMO)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dang I had a big comment written and then Safari crashed.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll just say that while I think most of the idea comes more from Kabbalism and Judaism read back into Mormonism there is more to 19th century views than you suggest Ardis. (The indirect claim about Eliza Snow by her brother, for instance)  I find it completely wrong, of course.  But I also think it goes well beyond what you suggest.  That is more than what certain readings of the A/G theory suggest.  </p>
<p>I know Geoff is a big proponent but it appears primarily based upon ethical concerns and concerns about strong libertarian free will such that a <i>final</i> judgment is even ontologically possible.  (i.e. a final judgments suggests an essential character)</p>
<p>Those attempting proof texts though tend to try and find plural uses of the term &#8220;probation&#8221; (often in late secondary &#8220;recollections&#8221; of things Joseph Smith said).  They then take the extra step of arguing this entails reincarnation which seems dubious logic at best.  After all it can easily be interpreted to mean that everyone after judgment continues to progress and that progression is a new probation but not a new mortal life.  (i.e. the rejection that you are immediately exalted at resurrection with no progression or learning or grades)</p>
<p>Typically talk of MMP tends to conflate lots of different issues though &#8211; especially when engaging in proof texts.  (IMO)</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11961</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 15:11:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11961</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To be fair, there are some fairly unambiguous statements by early Utah Church leaders that espouse some form of mortal incarnation for previously resurrected individuals in certain limited situations.  This is not surprisingly controversial and by the time GQC had written this, these ideas were no longer viewed as accurate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To be fair, there are some fairly unambiguous statements by early Utah Church leaders that espouse some form of mortal incarnation for previously resurrected individuals in certain limited situations.  This is not surprisingly controversial and by the time GQC had written this, these ideas were no longer viewed as accurate.</p>
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		<title>By: Maurine</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11956</link>
		<dc:creator>Maurine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Jun 2009 04:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11956</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[We have been taught that the Lord allows all people to have access to some light and truth, just not the fullness of light and truth, and that they will be judged according to that amount of light and truth that they have received. The Church was restored to give us the fullness of the light and truth. If this is correct, then those LDS, who have the fullness of light and truth, choose to follow some other religion, such as Buddhism, etc., are actually regressing. They, however, will be judged according to the fullness of the light and truth they previously received as a member of the LDS Church.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We have been taught that the Lord allows all people to have access to some light and truth, just not the fullness of light and truth, and that they will be judged according to that amount of light and truth that they have received. The Church was restored to give us the fullness of the light and truth. If this is correct, then those LDS, who have the fullness of light and truth, choose to follow some other religion, such as Buddhism, etc., are actually regressing. They, however, will be judged according to the fullness of the light and truth they previously received as a member of the LDS Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11948</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, Ariel, church leaders have never taught such a thing. Some proponents of reincarnation, including today&#039;s Harmiston apostates and even some participants in the bloggernacle (which is where you&#039;ve probably run across it) look to ambiguous comments and statements taken out of context, made by some early church leaders who were speculating on just how God the Father &lt;em&gt;became&lt;/em&gt; God the Father, to support their heresy. 

GQC appears here to be familiar with the idea only as a perversion of the gospel, not as something that had ever been taught by even some of the leaders.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, Ariel, church leaders have never taught such a thing. Some proponents of reincarnation, including today&#8217;s Harmiston apostates and even some participants in the bloggernacle (which is where you&#8217;ve probably run across it) look to ambiguous comments and statements taken out of context, made by some early church leaders who were speculating on just how God the Father <em>became</em> God the Father, to support their heresy. </p>
<p>GQC appears here to be familiar with the idea only as a perversion of the gospel, not as something that had ever been taught by even some of the leaders.</p>
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		<title>By: Ariel</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11946</link>
		<dc:creator>Ariel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:52:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11946</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Didn&#039;t early leaders of the church teach a doctrine of multiple mortal probations? Does anyone know when and why this became seen as false doctrine?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t early leaders of the church teach a doctrine of multiple mortal probations? Does anyone know when and why this became seen as false doctrine?</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11943</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11943</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, this is not all that can be said on the subject of suicide.  And it&#039;s gratifying to me that as a society, we now tend to take into account the mental illness of someone who commits suicide when passing moral judgment.  

However, something imbedded in this particular question made me look at the issue in another light, too.  Specifically, the question is asked about a suicide that occurred in the throes of some highly emotionally-charged situation.  The thought occurred to me that, in the law, we generally take into account the killer&#039;s state of mind, i.e, whether some event caused such rage or terror that they were left without the ability to to objectively evaluate their actions.  And that it&#039;s pretty much settled that the severity of a taking of life can be somewhat mitigated by these extenuating circumstances related to the offender&#039;s emotional state.  So, too, these extenuating circumstances related to one&#039;s emotional state - and not necessarily related to mental illness - should also play into our understanding of how to evaluate a suicide.

Maybe I&#039;m stating the obvious, but the question as posed in this Q&amp;A made me think about it from this angle.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is not all that can be said on the subject of suicide.  And it&#8217;s gratifying to me that as a society, we now tend to take into account the mental illness of someone who commits suicide when passing moral judgment.  </p>
<p>However, something imbedded in this particular question made me look at the issue in another light, too.  Specifically, the question is asked about a suicide that occurred in the throes of some highly emotionally-charged situation.  The thought occurred to me that, in the law, we generally take into account the killer&#8217;s state of mind, i.e, whether some event caused such rage or terror that they were left without the ability to to objectively evaluate their actions.  And that it&#8217;s pretty much settled that the severity of a taking of life can be somewhat mitigated by these extenuating circumstances related to the offender&#8217;s emotional state.  So, too, these extenuating circumstances related to one&#8217;s emotional state &#8211; and not necessarily related to mental illness &#8211; should also play into our understanding of how to evaluate a suicide.</p>
<p>Maybe I&#8217;m stating the obvious, but the question as posed in this Q&amp;A made me think about it from this angle.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11942</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11942</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...and Justin beats me to the punch.  I should learn never to tempt the master.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;and Justin beats me to the punch.  I should learn never to tempt the master.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Stapley</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11941</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Stapley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11941</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I believe that it was in 1893 that they first started letting family members do temple work for suicides.  The case of Helen Mar Whitney Kimball&#039;s son as outlined in her diaries is particularly poignant; and the Church authorities response, was generally quite compassionate, if I remember correctly.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://graceforgrace.com/2009/05/12/mormon-prophet-says-abstaining-from-water-in-fast-not-necessary-science-says-its-healthier/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is the bit on Heber J. Grant and water.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe that it was in 1893 that they first started letting family members do temple work for suicides.  The case of Helen Mar Whitney Kimball&#8217;s son as outlined in her diaries is particularly poignant; and the Church authorities response, was generally quite compassionate, if I remember correctly.</p>
<p><a href="http://graceforgrace.com/2009/05/12/mormon-prophet-says-abstaining-from-water-in-fast-not-necessary-science-says-its-healthier/" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is the bit on Heber J. Grant and water.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11940</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11940</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps it&#039;s the message quoted &lt;a href=&quot;http://graceforgrace.com/2009/05/12/mormon-prophet-says-abstaining-from-water-in-fast-not-necessary-science-says-its-healthier/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s the message quoted <a href="http://graceforgrace.com/2009/05/12/mormon-prophet-says-abstaining-from-water-in-fast-not-necessary-science-says-its-healthier/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/26/i-have-a-question-1893/comment-page-1/#comment-11936</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2271#comment-11936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ben, I do remember that, and tried to find it to link to it when posting this, but couldn&#039;t remember where it was. (Paging Justin ... )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, I do remember that, and tried to find it to link to it when posting this, but couldn&#8217;t remember where it was. (Paging Justin &#8230; )</p>
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