Thanks again.

I realize this back-and-forth makes for entertaining blogging, but I’m afraid I now have to step away from the forthing part of it. Anyone who wants to continue discussing this with Bill is of course welcome to, as long as he is willing to entertain questions.

Second, the sermons of Brigham Young and other leaders are full of statements showing their conviction that Salt Lake Valley was the place where the Saints would remain, at least until they could return to Jackson County. They spoke of the temple under construction as the temple that would stand through the Millennium. There’s an entire doctrine centered around Salt Lake’s position in “the tops of the mountains” — perhaps that could have been transferred in some form to another mountainous region, but it would have required a lot of back-peddling. There is another body of statements from that era that although the Saints would have to defend themselves, they would never again be moved out of their place — there would be no more drivings. Whether any historian believes those prophecies or not, they define the mindset of Brigham Young.

Third, review what you know of Brigham Young and his career. Nobody had more intimate practical knowledge of what would be required to move a large body of people through the wilderness than Brigham Young: Not only had he superintended the exodus across the plains, but he had earlier shepherded the Saints fleeing from Missouri to Nauvoo, when Joseph was lying in Liberty Jail. Suppose for a moment that Brigham had intended to evacuate Utah for some distant point. Such a move would have been far more difficult than the exodus from Nauvoo had been:

There were several times more people in Utah than there had been in Nauvoo and environs.

They were far more poverty-stricken in Utah than they had been in Nauvoo — even getting people from the north of Utah to Provo and points southward during the Move South in a short-term, local evacuation meant that wagons and teams had to make multiple round trips, something that could not have been done had the evacuation site been at a much greater distance (Sonora? Alaska?). Every description of the Saints I’ve seen, from either Mormon or federal sources, at the time of the Move South says that the majority of the people were barefoot and nearly naked. Clothing was already next-to-nonexistent in Utah, with other goods being in equally short supply. This is a people prepared to “escape” somewhere?

Everyone would have had to go at once. In Nauvoo, thousands of people went to St. Louis or melted back into the general population as they worked over several years to acquire the means to go west. There’s no place in the West for anyone to wait — they all would have had to go at once.

In Nauvoo, when the decision was made to evacuate and head west, the entire city turned into a wagon shop during the winter. Women sewed canvas wagon tops and tents non-stop. Blacksmiths were in constant work. Wagons and wagon components were built everywhere, including in homes. But there is not the slightest sign — no hint whatsoever — of any similar activity in Salt Lake during the winter of 1857-58. People were asked to eat their vegetables and store their wheat and cattle (transportable food), and boxes were built to cache household goods and grain, but that was all with the anticipation that the people might have to flee to the hills and fight a guerrilla war — still in the neighborhood of Salt Lake, not in some distant point. If any rolling stock was built during the winter, it escapes any presence in the historical record.

The people were not prepared to move. The alternative is to assume that Brigham, and perhaps other leaders, would abandon the Saints and “escape” themselves. What have you ever seen in Brigham Young’s history that would justify such a suspicion?

Your (2) could be best answered by a clearer picture of Brigham’s southern expedition, his multiple preaching trips north and south, and his annual winter pilgrimages to St. George late in his life. I don’t have time to look up numbers involved in those expeditions. The trip to Fort Limhi is no doubt the largest such expedition — but is size somehow proof of a secret agenda?

Bill’s numbers illustrate the size of the expedition, but some of those numbers are red herrings. Church leaders, who were also political and military leaders, were Brigham’s closest colleagues — who else would he go a-camping with? What difference does it make what number were apostles, and what number were Nauvoo Legion generals, when they’re all the same people drawn from the same circle of friends? Doesn’t the number of women present tend to support the idea of a recreational outing, not a military expedition? If 137 adults in your ward drove to a ward party, would you expect fewer than 54 cars? Would you be surprised if there were two motorized toys among them (my analogy to the two light boats, which could have been of practical use on the Limhi expedition, I suppose, but not very practical for use by such a large party)? 168 horses and mules is hardly extraordinary, either, allowing for two horses to pull each wagon, with a small number of the men riding horseback.

I concede that it’s a large group, but I see no need to read conspiratorial purpose behind that size, and given the size, nothing at all unusual in the makeup and equipment of the party.

This comment is way too long and is being posted without being re-read. I hope it’s coherent, and that I haven’t overlooked too many parts of your questions.

1) Ardis, what IF the idea of an escape route had entered BY’s head? What then? I guess what I want to know is, besides Brigham’s statements that he intended to stay in Utah and fight, what other reasons make you hostile to the escape route idea?

2) Anybody want to tell me why the company was so large? I mean, 142 people “including the entire LDS Church’s First Presidency, all but one of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles then residing in Utah, six Nauvoo Legion (militia) generals, and two Indian chiefs of the Northern Wasatch Utah and Pahvant Ute tribes,” and including “22 women and 5 boys, with 168 horses and mules, 54 wagons and carriages, and 2 light boats.” Wow! This was no small thing. Are we to attach any significance to this? Or not?