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	<title>Comments on: A Lesson on Signs, Tokens, and Symbols</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11928</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11928</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Over time, I think I’ve realized that for me the “live” endowment session conveys better the symbolic nature of it all than does the film version&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, I think we&#039;ve really lost something by moving to film.  I understand why it is done (and I&#039;m glad SLC Temple does it the old way) but it really affects the effect of the endowment.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I always felt weird how sacrament in the LDS tradition takes place in a small table in a side corner of the reunion hall and as quickly and efficiently as possible as if the goal was to “get it over with in the least amount of time possible.” In the beginning of my LDS experience, the sacrament itself just didn’t seem to be the central purpose of the meeting.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I always enjoyed the sacrament.  To me it&#039;s always been the highlight of the meeting.  I think that Mormonism is interesting in that it combines &quot;high church&quot; and &quot;low church&quot; aspects.  There is that less symbolic much more personal aspect of ritual which we find on Sundays.  The sacrament is style obviously symbolic, but it&#039;s much more personal in my mind.  The temple is highly ritualized and symbolic  but also much more participatory and communal.

Being the sort that normally dislikes ritual of any kind (I skipped my graduation) I&#039;m constantly surprised at how the temple touches me.  But in a sense I also really, really like the sacrament.  (And look forward to the day my kids are old enough that I can spend the time with my eyes closed meditating rather than vainly trying to keep my toddlers reverent)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Over time, I think I’ve realized that for me the “live” endowment session conveys better the symbolic nature of it all than does the film version</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, I think we&#8217;ve really lost something by moving to film.  I understand why it is done (and I&#8217;m glad SLC Temple does it the old way) but it really affects the effect of the endowment.</p>
<blockquote><p>I always felt weird how sacrament in the LDS tradition takes place in a small table in a side corner of the reunion hall and as quickly and efficiently as possible as if the goal was to “get it over with in the least amount of time possible.” In the beginning of my LDS experience, the sacrament itself just didn’t seem to be the central purpose of the meeting.</p></blockquote>
<p>I always enjoyed the sacrament.  To me it&#8217;s always been the highlight of the meeting.  I think that Mormonism is interesting in that it combines &#8220;high church&#8221; and &#8220;low church&#8221; aspects.  There is that less symbolic much more personal aspect of ritual which we find on Sundays.  The sacrament is style obviously symbolic, but it&#8217;s much more personal in my mind.  The temple is highly ritualized and symbolic  but also much more participatory and communal.</p>
<p>Being the sort that normally dislikes ritual of any kind (I skipped my graduation) I&#8217;m constantly surprised at how the temple touches me.  But in a sense I also really, really like the sacrament.  (And look forward to the day my kids are old enough that I can spend the time with my eyes closed meditating rather than vainly trying to keep my toddlers reverent)</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11926</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:24:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11926</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t know how to get our youth more prepared than by encouraging serious study of the scriptures, which I think is already going on.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think a lesson in temple prep classes going over the near eastern culture would be helpful.  Perhaps with liberal quotations from some of Eliadi&#039;s works?  (Yes, they are somewhat dated, but really are a great introduction to the culture relevant to the temple and that way of thinking)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don’t know how to get our youth more prepared than by encouraging serious study of the scriptures, which I think is already going on.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think a lesson in temple prep classes going over the near eastern culture would be helpful.  Perhaps with liberal quotations from some of Eliadi&#8217;s works?  (Yes, they are somewhat dated, but really are a great introduction to the culture relevant to the temple and that way of thinking)</p>
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		<title>By: Hunter</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11879</link>
		<dc:creator>Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 06:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11879</guid>
		<description>I am just now reading this post and comments a few days late.  Judging by the title, the content of the lesson was a bit different than what I had expected.  I think the author makes a valiant - but obvious - attempt at familiarizing the student with the concept of symbolic worship.  Fine.  But I agree with the commenter who said that it doesn&#039;t really say much more than &quot;symbols are symbolic.&quot;

One of the substantive things in the lesson that I thought was worth commenting on is its treatment of the concept of &quot;initiation.&quot;  I was one of those who &lt;em&gt;wasn&#039;t&lt;/em&gt; freaked out by my first temple experiences.  (Over time, I think I&#039;ve realized that for me the &quot;live&quot; endowment session conveys better the symbolic nature of it all than does the film version.)  In any case, though, I thought of those I know were &lt;em&gt;were&lt;/em&gt; freaked out when I read this sentence:&lt;blockquote&gt;When you join a sorority, a fraternity, a lodge, or a church, you are required to do something, as well as to say something.&lt;/blockquote&gt;My thought is, in 2009 North America, how many people are joining sororities, fraternities, or even the once-ubiquitous lodge?  Not nearly as many as a generation or two ago.  The idea of having any sort of an &quot;initiation&quot; is a little foreign to most folks, I think.  And so, perhaps that&#039;s one reason some get bothered by the temple ordinances.  Separate from the concept of symbolic worship, this idea of initiation doesn&#039;t seem to be played up much in the standard temple prep lessons, and so I was glad to see it mentioned here.  

Made me go &quot;huh.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am just now reading this post and comments a few days late.  Judging by the title, the content of the lesson was a bit different than what I had expected.  I think the author makes a valiant &#8211; but obvious &#8211; attempt at familiarizing the student with the concept of symbolic worship.  Fine.  But I agree with the commenter who said that it doesn&#8217;t really say much more than &#8220;symbols are symbolic.&#8221;</p>
<p>One of the substantive things in the lesson that I thought was worth commenting on is its treatment of the concept of &#8220;initiation.&#8221;  I was one of those who <em>wasn&#8217;t</em> freaked out by my first temple experiences.  (Over time, I think I&#8217;ve realized that for me the &#8220;live&#8221; endowment session conveys better the symbolic nature of it all than does the film version.)  In any case, though, I thought of those I know were <em>were</em> freaked out when I read this sentence:<br />
<blockquote>When you join a sorority, a fraternity, a lodge, or a church, you are required to do something, as well as to say something.</p></blockquote>
<p>My thought is, in 2009 North America, how many people are joining sororities, fraternities, or even the once-ubiquitous lodge?  Not nearly as many as a generation or two ago.  The idea of having any sort of an &#8220;initiation&#8221; is a little foreign to most folks, I think.  And so, perhaps that&#8217;s one reason some get bothered by the temple ordinances.  Separate from the concept of symbolic worship, this idea of initiation doesn&#8217;t seem to be played up much in the standard temple prep lessons, and so I was glad to see it mentioned here.  </p>
<p>Made me go &#8220;huh.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Pratt</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11868</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Pratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 16:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ardis (22), that is what I had in mind.  Thanks for qualifying the setting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis (22), that is what I had in mind.  Thanks for qualifying the setting.</p>
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		<title>By: psychochemiker</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11865</link>
		<dc:creator>psychochemiker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11865</guid>
		<description>Awesome post, Ardis.  As usual.

I&#039;ve heard many other commenters say they would recommend attending another church&#039;s mass who has a high liturgy.  

I wonder how most high school seniors would take it if they attended a catholic mass, and observed sincere catholics place a cross of holy water on their own forheads, and genuflect as they enter the sanctuary and before they&#039;re seated in the pew.  They would also observe the standing, kneeling, sitting, and the rest of the high liturgy.  That could be one Sunday &quot;outing&quot;.  Another outing could be to an orthodox church baptism and chrismation, where they could observe the annointing with oil of the person being baptized.  We could call these outings &quot;Understanding of world religions.&quot;  We could also use this opportunity to teach our youth how to be respectful of other religions.  My 0.02$.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Awesome post, Ardis.  As usual.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard many other commenters say they would recommend attending another church&#8217;s mass who has a high liturgy.  </p>
<p>I wonder how most high school seniors would take it if they attended a catholic mass, and observed sincere catholics place a cross of holy water on their own forheads, and genuflect as they enter the sanctuary and before they&#8217;re seated in the pew.  They would also observe the standing, kneeling, sitting, and the rest of the high liturgy.  That could be one Sunday &#8220;outing&#8221;.  Another outing could be to an orthodox church baptism and chrismation, where they could observe the annointing with oil of the person being baptized.  We could call these outings &#8220;Understanding of world religions.&#8221;  We could also use this opportunity to teach our youth how to be respectful of other religions.  My 0.02$.</p>
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		<title>By: Manuel</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11861</link>
		<dc:creator>Manuel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:05:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11861</guid>
		<description>I think this lesson is very appropriate for the audience intended: high-school aged classes.  Therefore, this is not an immediately preliminary preparation for the Temple Endowment, but an earlier attempt to acquaint the young with the common use of symbology.  I actually find it refreshing for the time.

I agree with the author that we do not have mummery in the Church, but I also disagree with the definition given for mummery, since mummery per the Merriam Webster Dictionary means the following:

-A ridiculous, hypocritical, or pretentious ceremony or performance-

Perhaps what the author meant with &quot;an impression of the mind&quot; is that our ceremonies are not intended for the vanal purpose of causing mere &quot;shock,&quot; but for genuine and distinct purposes with spiritual implications and solemn contexts.  Symbols do intend to leave an impression on the mind, and the lesson reiterates repeatedly that the communication of a message is a basic component of the symbol itself. 

I believe all of our rites/ceremonies/ordinances do intend to leave an impression on the mind.  Beyond that, they intend to leave and impression on the heart, on the soul. And they are accompanied by spiritual implications, blessings, etc.

I wasn&#039;t &quot;weirded out&quot; by the Temple Endowment, but I am also a convert and had the Masonic experience prior...  

I actually felt relieved and thrived in the experience of the temple, since I am the type that craves for spiritual ritualism and I found our sunday church meetings a bit devoid of it.  

Coming from a Catholic background, where communion (the sacrament of the Lord&#039;s supper) takes place as the pinnacle of the highly ceremonial mass; I always felt weird how sacrament in the LDS tradition takes place in a small table in a side corner of the reunion hall and as quickly and efficiently as possible as if the goal was to &quot;get it over with in the least amount of time possible.&quot;  In the beginning of my LDS experience, the sacrament itself just didn&#039;t seem to be the central purpose of the meeting.

The endowment on the other hand was a huge ritual experience, with preparatory stages that increased gradually and a highly anticipated culmination.  I am the type of person that thrives and enjoys these type of things, so I was full of gratitude.  

Furthermore, it was very special and peculiar ritual. It was a ritual in which I could experience a personal ascention to the prescence of God and the crowning of my own potential.  I thought it was amazing.  It provided me with vision, hope and determination of hoped for future and actual event.  I love the nourishing feelings of hope, peace and humility when with the help of solemn prayer I trully internalize myself in that very context, a personal ascention.  I cannot express the gratitude I feel for the opportunity to have such experience.

I also remember a sister in the MTC saying she wasn&#039;t sure she was in the same church when in the temple.  I do think we are dropping the ball with the temple preparation of many members, although I hope these are the exception and not the rule. 

I have also come across those in the Church that seem to enjoy the creation of morbidity by making a big deal of &quot;keeping the secrets safe from the non-initiated,&quot; which is destructive.  I believe we can provide a much richer preparation than we do today without risking at all the misuse of any sacred information provided inside temple walls.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this lesson is very appropriate for the audience intended: high-school aged classes.  Therefore, this is not an immediately preliminary preparation for the Temple Endowment, but an earlier attempt to acquaint the young with the common use of symbology.  I actually find it refreshing for the time.</p>
<p>I agree with the author that we do not have mummery in the Church, but I also disagree with the definition given for mummery, since mummery per the Merriam Webster Dictionary means the following:</p>
<p>-A ridiculous, hypocritical, or pretentious ceremony or performance-</p>
<p>Perhaps what the author meant with &#8220;an impression of the mind&#8221; is that our ceremonies are not intended for the vanal purpose of causing mere &#8220;shock,&#8221; but for genuine and distinct purposes with spiritual implications and solemn contexts.  Symbols do intend to leave an impression on the mind, and the lesson reiterates repeatedly that the communication of a message is a basic component of the symbol itself. </p>
<p>I believe all of our rites/ceremonies/ordinances do intend to leave an impression on the mind.  Beyond that, they intend to leave and impression on the heart, on the soul. And they are accompanied by spiritual implications, blessings, etc.</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t &#8220;weirded out&#8221; by the Temple Endowment, but I am also a convert and had the Masonic experience prior&#8230;  </p>
<p>I actually felt relieved and thrived in the experience of the temple, since I am the type that craves for spiritual ritualism and I found our sunday church meetings a bit devoid of it.  </p>
<p>Coming from a Catholic background, where communion (the sacrament of the Lord&#8217;s supper) takes place as the pinnacle of the highly ceremonial mass; I always felt weird how sacrament in the LDS tradition takes place in a small table in a side corner of the reunion hall and as quickly and efficiently as possible as if the goal was to &#8220;get it over with in the least amount of time possible.&#8221;  In the beginning of my LDS experience, the sacrament itself just didn&#8217;t seem to be the central purpose of the meeting.</p>
<p>The endowment on the other hand was a huge ritual experience, with preparatory stages that increased gradually and a highly anticipated culmination.  I am the type of person that thrives and enjoys these type of things, so I was full of gratitude.  </p>
<p>Furthermore, it was very special and peculiar ritual. It was a ritual in which I could experience a personal ascention to the prescence of God and the crowning of my own potential.  I thought it was amazing.  It provided me with vision, hope and determination of hoped for future and actual event.  I love the nourishing feelings of hope, peace and humility when with the help of solemn prayer I trully internalize myself in that very context, a personal ascention.  I cannot express the gratitude I feel for the opportunity to have such experience.</p>
<p>I also remember a sister in the MTC saying she wasn&#8217;t sure she was in the same church when in the temple.  I do think we are dropping the ball with the temple preparation of many members, although I hope these are the exception and not the rule. </p>
<p>I have also come across those in the Church that seem to enjoy the creation of morbidity by making a big deal of &#8220;keeping the secrets safe from the non-initiated,&#8221; which is destructive.  I believe we can provide a much richer preparation than we do today without risking at all the misuse of any sacred information provided inside temple walls.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11858</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 05:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11858</guid>
		<description>I agree with Ben about the general permissibility of open discussion of symbols and covenants. I do think, though, that such discussion is generally best done in a church or home setting, where the right atmosphere and respect can be maintained and where people are known to be participating for the right reasons. My reluctance about a more frank discussion on the internet is that none of us know who is reading over our shoulders with the intent to mock, or what comments might be added by someone who wanted to offend.

Paradox, the other hard part of waiting for me was all the whispering and know-it-all superiority some people display. I remember when, as a teenager, I went to the St. George open house just before that temple was rededicated. The couple behind me kept saying in loud whispers, &quot;Oh, this is where they --- oh, shh! Better not say anything more.&quot; I found that SO annoying. Still do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Ben about the general permissibility of open discussion of symbols and covenants. I do think, though, that such discussion is generally best done in a church or home setting, where the right atmosphere and respect can be maintained and where people are known to be participating for the right reasons. My reluctance about a more frank discussion on the internet is that none of us know who is reading over our shoulders with the intent to mock, or what comments might be added by someone who wanted to offend.</p>
<p>Paradox, the other hard part of waiting for me was all the whispering and know-it-all superiority some people display. I remember when, as a teenager, I went to the St. George open house just before that temple was rededicated. The couple behind me kept saying in loud whispers, &#8220;Oh, this is where they &#8212; oh, shh! Better not say anything more.&#8221; I found that SO annoying. Still do.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Pratt</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11856</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Pratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11856</guid>
		<description>Well said, Paradox.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Paradox.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Pratt</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11855</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Pratt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11855</guid>
		<description>I got distracted by the use of the verb &quot;inhere.&quot;  That was awesome.

I agree with Steve C. that more open discussion of symbols is allowable.  In truth, what I have covenanted to not disclose is a very small fraction of the endowment ceremony.  I believe temple preparation should include discussion of the five particular laws/principles that participants covenant to obey, a primer on the place of ritual in Mormon worship, and something like the OP above on symbols.

That said, I do believe it worthwhile to consider whether the particular symbols in the temple rituals can teach the prepared participant more directly than any classroom discussion of those symbols.  Symbols are powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got distracted by the use of the verb &#8220;inhere.&#8221;  That was awesome.</p>
<p>I agree with Steve C. that more open discussion of symbols is allowable.  In truth, what I have covenanted to not disclose is a very small fraction of the endowment ceremony.  I believe temple preparation should include discussion of the five particular laws/principles that participants covenant to obey, a primer on the place of ritual in Mormon worship, and something like the OP above on symbols.</p>
<p>That said, I do believe it worthwhile to consider whether the particular symbols in the temple rituals can teach the prepared participant more directly than any classroom discussion of those symbols.  Symbols are powerful.</p>
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		<title>By: paradox</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/06/23/a-lesson-on-signs-tokens-and-symbols/comment-page-1/#comment-11854</link>
		<dc:creator>paradox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 03:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=2228#comment-11854</guid>
		<description>Perhaps I&#039;m just too precocious for my own good, but the hardest part of preparing to receive the ordinances of the temple is the wait. In that respect, I&#039;m grateful that I&#039;m a convert and I&#039;ve only had to feel this way for a few years so far, as opposed to much, much longer.

I&#039;ve received much of the same warnings of &quot;weirdness,&quot; that &quot;you won&#039;t get everything the first time,&quot; but they could honestly tell me to stand on my head and it wouldn&#039;t make a difference to me. I just want to be there, in the temple, in that intimate presence of the Lord.

The greatest favor you can do anyone in the youth is help them to cultivate that desire, to truly love the Lord with all their hearts, might, mind, and strength. I think it&#039;s safe to say that He can take care of the rest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I&#8217;m just too precocious for my own good, but the hardest part of preparing to receive the ordinances of the temple is the wait. In that respect, I&#8217;m grateful that I&#8217;m a convert and I&#8217;ve only had to feel this way for a few years so far, as opposed to much, much longer.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve received much of the same warnings of &#8220;weirdness,&#8221; that &#8220;you won&#8217;t get everything the first time,&#8221; but they could honestly tell me to stand on my head and it wouldn&#8217;t make a difference to me. I just want to be there, in the temple, in that intimate presence of the Lord.</p>
<p>The greatest favor you can do anyone in the youth is help them to cultivate that desire, to truly love the Lord with all their hearts, might, mind, and strength. I think it&#8217;s safe to say that He can take care of the rest.</p>
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