Comments on: The Mountain of the Lord’s House http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/ Where our past is never very long ago Mon, 15 Mar 2010 05:05:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: J. Paul http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11247 J. Paul Sat, 30 May 2009 02:53:27 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11247 The temple could have been built in less than 40 years. The builders lost significant time when they had to pull out the first sandstone foundation stones. Also, during the the Utah war the foundation was completely buried and had to be dug out when the threat had past The temple could have been built in less than 40 years. The builders lost significant time when they had to pull out the first sandstone foundation stones. Also, during the the Utah war the foundation was completely buried and had to be dug out when the threat had past

]]> By: Clark http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11233 Clark Fri, 29 May 2009 21:03:24 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11233 Smoothing the granite temple blocks with hand tools is absolutely amazing. Especially when one considers the stars, handshakes, and other symbols stick OUT of the stone. Building a granite temple (with walls 16 feet thick at the base) entirely with hand tools seems like an impossible task to gentiles on the American frontier and many of us today (and it probably would be). But to converts from Europe, it was commonplace. All of the great cathedrals in Europe have massive stone walls and symbolic carvings, shaped with hand tools and placed with horse-drawn cranes. The builders were used to the idea that houses of worship would take HUNDREDS of years to finish. 40 years is short compared to Notre Dame (1160-1345) or the Bern Munster (1421-1893). Regarding the mineral inclusions on the conference center stone, it's interesting that the temple masons were able to avoid showing a single inclusion on the entire exterior.(perhaps because the former is veneer while the latter is solid?) In any case, I'm afraid that level of talent has gone the way of the Dodo bird. Smoothing the granite temple blocks with hand tools is absolutely amazing. Especially when one considers the stars, handshakes, and other symbols stick OUT of the stone.

Building a granite temple (with walls 16 feet thick at the base) entirely with hand tools seems like an impossible task to gentiles on the American frontier and many of us today (and it probably would be). But to converts from Europe, it was commonplace. All of the great cathedrals in Europe have massive stone walls and symbolic carvings, shaped with hand tools and placed with horse-drawn cranes. The builders were used to the idea that houses of worship would take HUNDREDS of years to finish. 40 years is short compared to Notre Dame (1160-1345) or the Bern Munster (1421-1893).

Regarding the mineral inclusions on the conference center stone, it’s interesting that the temple masons were able to avoid showing a single inclusion on the entire exterior.(perhaps because the former is veneer while the latter is solid?) In any case, I’m afraid that level of talent has gone the way of the Dodo bird.

]]> By: Ardis E. Parshall http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11218 Ardis E. Parshall Fri, 29 May 2009 16:11:59 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11218 I like that response, J.! Curt, I rode past the Philadelphia Mint a week or ten days ago -- had I known of your involvement, I would have saluted. Some great comments and stories have been added overnight. Thanks for them all. I like that response, J.! Curt, I rode past the Philadelphia Mint a week or ten days ago — had I known of your involvement, I would have saluted.

Some great comments and stories have been added overnight. Thanks for them all.

]]> By: J. Paul http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11217 J. Paul Fri, 29 May 2009 16:03:23 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11217 When I was studying at the University of Wales, Swansea I had an institute instructor who, asked where I was from. When I said "Granite, Utah" he asked "Did anyone famous ever come from there?" I just smiled and said "No, just every stone on the Salt Lake temple!" When I was studying at the University of Wales, Swansea I had an institute instructor who, asked where I was from. When I said “Granite, Utah” he asked “Did anyone famous ever come from there?” I just smiled and said “No, just every stone on the Salt Lake temple!”

]]> By: Curt A. http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11214 Curt A. Fri, 29 May 2009 13:36:02 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11214 When you walk by the Conference Center, you will see various "flaws" in the granite - darker spots and veins - that bother some people. These, of course, are inclusions of darker material that were floating in the molten (igneous) rock when it was laid down eons ago. Visitors sometimes ask about it when they are one of the tours through the building, sometimes expressing displeasure that the stone is not perfect. I had an experience with granite inclusions in 1967 when I was construction manager on the new United States Mint next to Independence Mall in Philadelphia. Eva Adams, Director of the Mint, came from Washington to see the progress, She saw a similar situation with several of the large sections of the pink granite placed on the front of the building showing darker inclusions. She wanted us to take them off and put them on the back of the building. I had a tough time explaining the value of naturalness in the stone taken from Mother Earth as it came from the quarry. I was not very successful until I told her my guess at the cost of doing so as each slab was cut for its place in the building and the could not be swapped without cutting new pieces and fitting them individually. I don't think she was ever happy. I had visited the quarry in West Chelmsford, Mass. to see the mockup wall placed in the quarry before shipment. The Fletcher family, quarrymen going back almost to the Revolutionary era, invited me to "dinner" during my first trip. It was really lunch, in today's language. We got together in the old family house on the edge of the quarry. Before the meal was served, wine glasses were filled. I declined the service by turning my glass upside down. Nothing was said. After the large meal, coffee cups were filled. Ralph Fletcher, the patriarch of the family said: "You're a Mormon!" I said I was and he said: "We granite men have a great respect for you Mormons, (What a relief.) you Mormons have the largest single shaft of granite in the country at your shrine in Vermont at the birthplace of your Prophet. We are all proud of that obelisk." Then the conversation went to the challenge of cutting the piece and getting up the muddy road and the providential frost of the night before. He seemed to know all about the history. When the project was finished and I was transferred back to our company's California office, he sent me a nice book about fly fishing with an expression of friendship and good wishes. That is one of the best memories of my 40-year engineering career. (Sorry for the long story, but it seemed to fit here.) When you walk by the Conference Center, you will see various “flaws” in the granite – darker spots and veins – that bother some people. These, of course, are inclusions of darker material that were floating in the molten (igneous) rock when it was laid down eons ago. Visitors sometimes ask about it when they are one of the tours through the building, sometimes expressing displeasure that the stone is not perfect.

I had an experience with granite inclusions in 1967 when I was construction manager on the new United States Mint next to Independence Mall in Philadelphia. Eva Adams, Director of the Mint, came from Washington to see the progress, She saw a similar situation with several of the large sections of the pink granite placed on the front of the building showing darker inclusions. She wanted us to take them off and put them on the back of the building. I had a tough time explaining the value of naturalness in the stone taken from Mother Earth as it came from the quarry. I was not very successful until I told her my guess at the cost of doing so as each slab was cut for its place in the building and the could not be swapped without cutting new pieces and fitting them individually.
I don’t think she was ever happy.

I had visited the quarry in West Chelmsford, Mass. to see the mockup wall placed in the quarry before shipment. The Fletcher family, quarrymen going back almost to the Revolutionary era, invited me to “dinner” during my first trip. It was really lunch, in today’s language. We got together in the old family house on the edge of the quarry. Before the meal was served, wine glasses were filled. I declined the service by turning my glass upside down. Nothing was said. After the large meal, coffee cups were filled. Ralph Fletcher, the patriarch of the family said: “You’re a Mormon!” I said I was and he said: “We granite men have a great respect for you Mormons, (What a relief.) you Mormons have the largest single shaft of granite in the country at your shrine in Vermont at the birthplace of your Prophet. We are all proud of that obelisk.” Then the conversation went to the challenge of cutting the piece and getting up the muddy road and the providential frost of the night before. He seemed to know all about the history. When the project was finished and I was transferred back to our company’s California office, he sent me a nice book about fly fishing with an expression of friendship and good wishes. That is one of the best memories of my 40-year engineering career.

(Sorry for the long story, but it seemed to fit here.)

]]> By: J. Paul http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11213 J. Paul Fri, 29 May 2009 10:57:14 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11213 Ardis, your post is great but I want to point out that freezing water did play a role in 'temple quarry stone'. I understand your purpose in writing about the hard work, "muscle, sweat and dedication of many hundreds of pairs of hands, to cut the stone..." but you pass over the herculean effort of the forces of nature to put them there in the first place. Before all those stones could be broken up, hauled off and chiseled they were part of the mountain. How they got to the canyon floor is no great mystery, its geology. In this case the boulders containing the construction stones of the temple were literally "cut out of the mountain without hands" by the scouring force of glaciers that gouged the canyon and deposited them. Geology 101. If you don't like that explanation, Ardis ironically offers one that strongly supports the erosive action of freezing water. Says she: "...so many huge granite boulders had fallen from the canyon sides through the preceding millennia that their work was simplified – all temple stone was taken from the fallen boulders without the necessity of cutting stone from the mountain itself." Although this freezing action wasn't man made she is correct in assigning the action "through the preceding millennia". How else would the "huge granite boulders" have fallen? The process is found in any Geology textbook. Erosion, including freezing water will break solid stone, it just takes a long time. Natural freezing action of water played another role in quarrying. Ardis alludes to this . "...Expert stonemen can determine the “grain” of granite, the lines along which the stone will have a tendency to split, given the proper encouragement." This is looking for existing cracks and imperfections which freezing water have already begun to exploit. In other words marking grain patterns "No stones used in the temple have ever split through the action of water seeping into carvings or crevices..." while this is true for the stones in their current stacked, carved and fitted state. nothing in nature is static and, given enough time the temple will erode like any mountain. Virtually every stone used in the construction of the Salt Lake Temple was cut out of the mountain by geologic and while the notion of pioneers using freezing water to quarry stone has been discredited, frozen water both in glaciation and erosion has played significant a role in the quarrying story. Before the hand of man touched any temple stone, that stone was put there by the forces of tectonics and freezing water. As for the myth of the pioneers using the freeze method arising among their descendents, perhaps it came as a natural inclination to ascribe them the harnesing of nature. Its a common theme in history: to subdue nature a put all things under Man's control. Ardis, your post is great but I want to point out that freezing water did play a role in ‘temple quarry stone’.
I understand your purpose in writing about the hard work, “muscle, sweat and dedication of many hundreds of pairs of hands, to cut the stone…” but you pass over the herculean effort of the forces of nature to put them there in the first place. Before all those stones could be broken up, hauled off and chiseled they were part of the mountain.

How they got to the canyon floor is no great mystery, its geology.
In this case the boulders containing the construction stones of the temple were literally “cut out of the mountain without hands” by the scouring force of glaciers that gouged the canyon and deposited them. Geology 101.

If you don’t like that explanation, Ardis ironically offers one that strongly supports the erosive action of freezing water.
Says she: “…so many huge granite boulders had fallen from the canyon sides through the preceding millennia that their work was simplified – all temple stone was taken from the fallen boulders without the necessity of cutting stone from the mountain itself.” Although this freezing action wasn’t man made she is correct in assigning the action “through the preceding millennia”. How else would the “huge granite boulders” have fallen? The process is found in any Geology textbook. Erosion, including freezing water will break solid stone, it just takes a long time.

Natural freezing action of water played another role in quarrying. Ardis alludes to this . “…Expert stonemen can determine the “grain” of granite, the lines along which the stone will have a tendency to split, given the proper encouragement.” This is looking for existing cracks and imperfections which freezing water have already begun to exploit. In other words marking grain patterns

“No stones used in the temple have ever split through the action of water seeping into carvings or crevices…” while this is true for the stones in their current stacked, carved and fitted state. nothing in nature is static and, given enough time the temple will erode like any mountain.
Virtually every stone used in the construction of the Salt Lake Temple was cut out of the mountain by geologic and while the notion of pioneers using freezing water to quarry stone has been discredited, frozen water both in glaciation and erosion has played significant a role in the quarrying story. Before the hand of man touched any temple stone, that stone was put there by the forces of tectonics and freezing water.

As for the myth of the pioneers using the freeze method arising among their descendents, perhaps it came as a natural inclination to ascribe them the harnesing of nature. Its a common theme in history: to subdue nature a put all things under Man’s control.

]]> By: J. Paul http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11212 J. Paul Fri, 29 May 2009 10:53:01 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11212 Ardis, this is topic that hits close to home. I grew up in the community of Granite just a couple of miles from the temple quarries. The original Granite chapel (9800 S . 3100 E.) was built of 'temple quarry granite' and the modern one two blocks north also featured granite as part of the architecture. The western wall of the chapel was made of irregular chunks of Granite pieced together in a sort of patchwork pattern as was the bell tower. I grew up sitting in front of that wall during sacrament meeting and ringing the bell in the tower and hearing stories of Granite's history. I remember the stories about the freezing water method of splitting the temple stones. I was still fairly young (about middle school) when I learned that wasn't true but I still heard stories of it for many years. In about 1997 our stake published a "history" of Granite which was mostly reminiscences and fluff but did attempt to clear up the water-freezing-method myth with a short sentence. On a more personal note. I went home teaching with my father to a home very near the mouth of the canyon, the occupants of which were two elderly sisters with the surname kurhe. One was called Elva and I don't remember the other one's name but I think they're related to this William Dobie Kurhe. Next to their house was an ancient pile of logs in the shape of what used to be a cabin, presumably used by stone cutters from pioneer times. (I don't think it's there anymore). In any case thanks for the post. Ardis, this is topic that hits close to home. I grew up in the community of Granite just a couple of miles from the temple quarries. The original Granite chapel (9800 S . 3100 E.) was built of ‘temple quarry granite’ and the modern one two blocks north also featured granite as part of the architecture. The western wall of the chapel was made of irregular chunks of Granite pieced together in a sort of patchwork pattern as was the bell tower. I grew up sitting in front of that wall during sacrament meeting and ringing the bell in the tower and hearing stories of Granite’s history. I remember the stories about the freezing water method of splitting the temple stones. I was still fairly young (about middle school) when I learned that wasn’t true but I still heard stories of it for many years. In about 1997 our stake published a “history” of Granite which was mostly reminiscences and fluff but did attempt to clear up the water-freezing-method myth with a short sentence.

On a more personal note. I went home teaching with my father to a home very near the mouth of the canyon, the occupants of which were two elderly sisters with the surname kurhe. One was called Elva and I don’t remember the other one’s name but I think they’re related to this William Dobie Kurhe. Next to their house was an ancient pile of logs in the shape of what used to be a cabin, presumably used by stone cutters from pioneer times. (I don’t think it’s there anymore). In any case thanks for the post.

]]> By: m&m http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11208 m&m Fri, 29 May 2009 05:12:03 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11208 One of my favorite Church movies is "Mountain of the Lord" -- James Livingston plays a prominent role in the story. Ardis, seeing this title made me wonder if you have anything on the celebration that took place when the SL temple was dedicated. The youth of the SL valley will be performing in a <a href="http://www.lds.org/events/info/0,8197,726-1-693,00.html" rel="nofollow">celebration</a> this weekend, and the info about it says that it will be the first of its kind since the dedication of the SL temple. Do you have anything on that? One of my favorite Church movies is “Mountain of the Lord” — James Livingston plays a prominent role in the story.

Ardis, seeing this title made me wonder if you have anything on the celebration that took place when the SL temple was dedicated. The youth of the SL valley will be performing in a celebration this weekend, and the info about it says that it will be the first of its kind since the dedication of the SL temple. Do you have anything on that?

]]> By: Annette http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11171 Annette Wed, 27 May 2009 15:09:15 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11171 Thanks for this. I love learning little-known construction stories. I'd always had a suspicion that the freezing and wood stories were wrong. Nice to know I was right on that. Love the pictures. Thanks for this. I love learning little-known construction stories. I’d always had a suspicion that the freezing and wood stories were wrong. Nice to know I was right on that. Love the pictures.

]]> By: Maurine http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2009/05/26/the-mountain-of-the-lords-house/comment-page-1/#comment-11166 Maurine Wed, 27 May 2009 06:26:23 +0000 http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=1951#comment-11166 My great-grandfather built a wonderful rock house in Centerville, with big wooden barns, ice house, granaries, etc. On each corner of the house are granite quoins from rejected granite cut for the temple. My aunt had three slabs of granite taken from one of the outbuildings of great-grandpa. We gave one a few years ago to the Centerville museum and the others are still at my aunt's home, now owned by my son. My great-grandfather built a wonderful rock house in Centerville, with big wooden barns, ice house, granaries, etc. On each corner of the house are granite quoins from rejected granite cut for the temple. My aunt had three slabs of granite taken from one of the outbuildings of great-grandpa. We gave one a few years ago to the Centerville museum and the others are still at my aunt’s home, now owned by my son.

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