<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: “The Qmlbwpnygax Eujugec Have Not the Power to Ktgjie the Wzznlhmpygtg”: Codes and Ciphers in Mormon History (part 2)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%E2%80%9Cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%E2%80%9D-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:55:28 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4888</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4888</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I haven&#039;t read it, but I also noticed that Lynott has published an article entitled &quot;Communicating Insularity: The Deseret Alphabet of Nineteenth-Century Mormon Education.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t read it, but I also noticed that Lynott has published an article entitled &#8220;Communicating Insularity: The Deseret Alphabet of Nineteenth-Century Mormon Education.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4887</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:58:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4887</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;em&gt;None of those statements come from “insiders,” those that I would consider to have any inside knowledge of the purpose of the DA from the point of view of those who actually constructed and advocated the DA — would you?&lt;/em&gt;

I agree with you.  BTW, I dropped the passage for reasons of length, but I found that B.H. Roberts, CHC 5:79-80, responded to the insularity claims, specifically addressing Bancroft.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>None of those statements come from “insiders,” those that I would consider to have any inside knowledge of the purpose of the DA from the point of view of those who actually constructed and advocated the DA — would you?</em></p>
<p>I agree with you.  BTW, I dropped the passage for reasons of length, but I found that B.H. Roberts, CHC 5:79-80, responded to the insularity claims, specifically addressing Bancroft.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4886</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4886</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Justin. None of those statements come from &quot;insiders,&quot; those that I would consider to have any inside knowledge of the purpose of the DA from the point of view of those who actually constructed and advocated the DA -- would you?

And even if I granted for the sake of discussion that such was BY&#039;s intent, we&#039;d have to account for the utter failure of BY to do anything -- a single thing -- to curb the importation of massive amounts of reading material in the form of books, newspapers, and magazines, at any time. (He did rail against dime novels and romances and lying journalism, but he didn&#039;t lift a finger to interfere with its importation.)

For me, the reality of the imports, with BY&#039;s full support and encouragement, and to a great degree his financing (and we&#039;re not even beginning to talk about his constant efforts to decrease isolation through improved mail and freighting and encouragement for railroads), so far outweighs the ideological theories advanced for isolation and insularity that I can&#039;t take them seriously. At all.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Justin. None of those statements come from &#8220;insiders,&#8221; those that I would consider to have any inside knowledge of the purpose of the DA from the point of view of those who actually constructed and advocated the DA &#8212; would you?</p>
<p>And even if I granted for the sake of discussion that such was BY&#8217;s intent, we&#8217;d have to account for the utter failure of BY to do anything &#8212; a single thing &#8212; to curb the importation of massive amounts of reading material in the form of books, newspapers, and magazines, at any time. (He did rail against dime novels and romances and lying journalism, but he didn&#8217;t lift a finger to interfere with its importation.)</p>
<p>For me, the reality of the imports, with BY&#8217;s full support and encouragement, and to a great degree his financing (and we&#8217;re not even beginning to talk about his constant efforts to decrease isolation through improved mail and freighting and encouragement for railroads), so far outweighs the ideological theories advanced for isolation and insularity that I can&#8217;t take them seriously. At all.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Justin</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4884</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:38:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4884</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re ##8,12:

I&#039;ve come across a few relevant sources: 

Bigler&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Forgotten Kingdom&lt;/em&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Aimed to reform the representation of the English language, not the language itself, the new phonetic system offered a number of advantages. First, it demonstrated cultural exclusivism, an important consideration. It also kept secrets from curious non-Mormons, controlled what children would be allowed to read, and in a largely unlettered society that included non-English speaking converts, eliminated the awkward problem of phonetic spelling. For such reasons, for nearly two decades Brigham Young pushed the new alphabet on reluctant followers.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

Bancroft&#039;s &lt;em&gt;History of Utah&lt;/em&gt;, 712:

&lt;blockquote&gt;At a meeting of the board of regents, held in October 1853, Parley P. Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, and George D. Watt were appointed a committee to prepare a small school-book in characters founded on some new system of orthography, whereby the spelling and pronunciation of the English language might be made uniform and easily acquired. A further object was exclusiveness, a separate people wishing to have a separate language, and perhaps in time an independent literature.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

P. Lynott&#039;s dissertation on Susa Young Gates quotes from an 1868 &lt;em&gt;Deseret News&lt;/em&gt; article stating that a primary reason for the DA was &quot;the weeding out of objectionable literature.&quot;  She states that church leaders believed that the DA would help unify a diverse set of colonists, including thousands of non-English speaking converts, and provide educational benefits.  Finally, she argues that Mormons were isolated from the rest of society and deliberately chose to be isolated.  Thus, a separate language would assist in ensuring their insularity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re ##8,12:</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve come across a few relevant sources: </p>
<p>Bigler&#8217;s <em>Forgotten Kingdom</em>:</p>
<blockquote><p>Aimed to reform the representation of the English language, not the language itself, the new phonetic system offered a number of advantages. First, it demonstrated cultural exclusivism, an important consideration. It also kept secrets from curious non-Mormons, controlled what children would be allowed to read, and in a largely unlettered society that included non-English speaking converts, eliminated the awkward problem of phonetic spelling. For such reasons, for nearly two decades Brigham Young pushed the new alphabet on reluctant followers.</p></blockquote>
<p>Bancroft&#8217;s <em>History of Utah</em>, 712:</p>
<blockquote><p>At a meeting of the board of regents, held in October 1853, Parley P. Pratt, Heber C. Kimball, and George D. Watt were appointed a committee to prepare a small school-book in characters founded on some new system of orthography, whereby the spelling and pronunciation of the English language might be made uniform and easily acquired. A further object was exclusiveness, a separate people wishing to have a separate language, and perhaps in time an independent literature.</p></blockquote>
<p>P. Lynott&#8217;s dissertation on Susa Young Gates quotes from an 1868 <em>Deseret News</em> article stating that a primary reason for the DA was &#8220;the weeding out of objectionable literature.&#8221;  She states that church leaders believed that the DA would help unify a diverse set of colonists, including thousands of non-English speaking converts, and provide educational benefits.  Finally, she argues that Mormons were isolated from the rest of society and deliberately chose to be isolated.  Thus, a separate language would assist in ensuring their insularity.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4840</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4840</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Further to 21:  Neither the archives nor the church history library has anything catalogued under the name &quot;Grose&quot; nor under the title cited. Either its author is mistaken about having sent a copy here, or else the archivists and librarians have found it of insufficient importance to catalog in the past seven years.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to 21:  Neither the archives nor the church history library has anything catalogued under the name &#8220;Grose&#8221; nor under the title cited. Either its author is mistaken about having sent a copy here, or else the archivists and librarians have found it of insufficient importance to catalog in the past seven years.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: BruceC</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4839</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4839</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;ll not comment on what Dr. Grose said but I think I understand why you left it up. It and your response reveal volumes.

As always, your post is wonderful and a pleasure to read. I too am looking forward to part 3.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll not comment on what Dr. Grose said but I think I understand why you left it up. It and your response reveal volumes.</p>
<p>As always, your post is wonderful and a pleasure to read. I too am looking forward to part 3.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4836</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:46:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4836</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The unpleasantness, sir, was not in the idea, but in your behavior. I was asking you questions about your ideas, the way one does at a social function, to draw you into conversation and to understand the direction of your research. Between one question and the next, with no warning, some sort of psychotic switch seemed to flip on in your mind. Your voice turned sarcastic and mocking, you said I was behaving &quot;just like a woman,&quot; and that a woman couldn&#039;t possibly understand.

You, sir, have no place attending polite functions, and are not welcome to comment on Keepa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The unpleasantness, sir, was not in the idea, but in your behavior. I was asking you questions about your ideas, the way one does at a social function, to draw you into conversation and to understand the direction of your research. Between one question and the next, with no warning, some sort of psychotic switch seemed to flip on in your mind. Your voice turned sarcastic and mocking, you said I was behaving &#8220;just like a woman,&#8221; and that a woman couldn&#8217;t possibly understand.</p>
<p>You, sir, have no place attending polite functions, and are not welcome to comment on Keepa.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew J Grose, M.D.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4835</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew J Grose, M.D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:22:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4835</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding note 12 above, I was a participant in the &quot;unpleasant conversation&quot; at the MHA and am afraid that A.E.P., somehow, misunderstood my point of view.
In my 2001 Stanford University master&#039;s thesis (available at BYU, Stanford Libraries, the Church archives in SLC)&quot;Of Two Minds: Language Reform and Millennialism in the Deseret Alphabet,&quot; I offer not a &quot;revision&quot; but a new and more comprehensive understanding of the Alphabet&#039;s essentially theological purpose, based on primary source material and analysis of previous scholarly research. (Papers based on that and further research are in preparation.)
It is unfortunate when new ideas are found &quot;unpleasant&quot; but good that they are &quot;memorable.&quot;
My interest is not in codes, but in understanding the more substantive issues that motivated the extraordinary Deseret Alphabet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding note 12 above, I was a participant in the &#8220;unpleasant conversation&#8221; at the MHA and am afraid that A.E.P., somehow, misunderstood my point of view.<br />
In my 2001 Stanford University master&#8217;s thesis (available at BYU, Stanford Libraries, the Church archives in SLC)&#8221;Of Two Minds: Language Reform and Millennialism in the Deseret Alphabet,&#8221; I offer not a &#8220;revision&#8221; but a new and more comprehensive understanding of the Alphabet&#8217;s essentially theological purpose, based on primary source material and analysis of previous scholarly research. (Papers based on that and further research are in preparation.)<br />
It is unfortunate when new ideas are found &#8220;unpleasant&#8221; but good that they are &#8220;memorable.&#8221;<br />
My interest is not in codes, but in understanding the more substantive issues that motivated the extraordinary Deseret Alphabet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4834</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 02:42:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Um, slightly more sex and violence than the OT, IIRC. Really.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s just veiled in Jacobean English in the KJV, so maybe you missed it.  :-)

And that was a good scene.  I&#039;ll have to suggest it to some of my estate planning clients.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Um, slightly more sex and violence than the OT, IIRC. Really.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s just veiled in Jacobean English in the KJV, so maybe you missed it.  <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>And that was a good scene.  I&#8217;ll have to suggest it to some of my estate planning clients.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: kevinf</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/12/10/%e2%80%9cthe-qmlbwpnygax-eujugec-have-not-the-power-to-ktgjie-the-wzznlhmpygtg%e2%80%9d-codes-and-ciphers-in-mormon-history-part-2/comment-page-1/#comment-4831</link>
		<dc:creator>kevinf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=482#comment-4831</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Mark B,

One of my favorite parts in &lt;em&gt;Cryptonomicon&lt;/em&gt; is the scene where the family of academics and mathematicians are dividing up the grandfather&#039;s estate by stamping out a huge x/y axis in the snow of the yard, and then placing items in relation to their perceived emotional vs financial value.

Um, slightly more sex and violence than the OT, IIRC.  Really.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark B,</p>
<p>One of my favorite parts in <em>Cryptonomicon</em> is the scene where the family of academics and mathematicians are dividing up the grandfather&#8217;s estate by stamping out a huge x/y axis in the snow of the yard, and then placing items in relation to their perceived emotional vs financial value.</p>
<p>Um, slightly more sex and violence than the OT, IIRC.  Really.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
