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	<title>Comments on: Melchizedek Priesthood Manual, 1939: On debt, taxation, conservation, and labor</title>
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	<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/</link>
	<description>Where our past is never very long ago</description>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-321659</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 18:02:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-321659</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rita, you find it “so liberal as to be scary!!!”  that these practices are approved in scripture? See the Bible: “And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” (Acts 2:44-45); the Book of Mormon: “And they taught, and did minister one to another; and they had all things common among them, every man dealing justly, one with another.” (3 Nephi 26:19); and the Doctrine and Covenants: “Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!” (D&amp;C 56:16)

There’s something far more “scary!!!” in your comment here than any church teaching: This is your taking it for granted that current radical conservative capitalism is more authentically divine than scripture, or than gospel ideals outlined in a church-sponsored manual ... or, for that matter, than the temple covenants that you have perhaps taken. 

Keepa is not the blog for you.  You want &lt;a href=&quot;www.millennialstar.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Millennial Star&lt;/a&gt;, or one of the more cartoonishly tea-partyish off-Bloggernacle blogs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rita, you find it “so liberal as to be scary!!!”  that these practices are approved in scripture? See the Bible: “And all that believed were together, and had all things common; and sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.” (Acts 2:44-45); the Book of Mormon: “And they taught, and did minister one to another; and they had all things common among them, every man dealing justly, one with another.” (3 Nephi 26:19); and the Doctrine and Covenants: “Wo unto you rich men, that will not give your substance to the poor, for your riches will canker your souls; and this shall be your lamentation in the day of visitation, and of judgment, and of indignation: The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and my soul is not saved!” (D&#038;C 56:16)</p>
<p>There’s something far more “scary!!!” in your comment here than any church teaching: This is your taking it for granted that current radical conservative capitalism is more authentically divine than scripture, or than gospel ideals outlined in a church-sponsored manual &#8230; or, for that matter, than the temple covenants that you have perhaps taken. </p>
<p>Keepa is not the blog for you.  You want <a href="www.millennialstar.org" rel="nofollow">Millennial Star</a>, or one of the more cartoonishly tea-partyish off-Bloggernacle blogs.</p>
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		<title>By: Rita</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-321051</link>
		<dc:creator>Rita</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 06:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-321051</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I recently purchased a copy of this book and was astounded by many statements in Chapter 10 &quot;Distribution of Wealth And Income&quot;.  Is this &quot;the Church&quot; policy - to divide the wealth equally?  - to &quot;continue the socialization of our service institutions through a system of progressive taxation&quot; which would &quot;let the captains of industry continue to produce wealth, TAKING THE BULK OF THEIR PROFITS TO FINANCE FREE EDUCATION, FREE LIBRARIES, ... SICKNESS AND ACCIDENT INSURANCE, AND PERHAPS EVENTUALLY FREE MEDICAL AID AND HOSPITAL SERVICE.&quot;

&quot;Such a program, introduced step by step, is nothing less than a panorama of the social reforms that are on the agenda for legislative consideration during the decades immediately ahead of us.&quot;

&quot;Inheritance and estate taxes will become progressively higher, until the present system of permitting large fortunes to be passed on from generation to generation will become extinct.&quot;

&quot;Anyone who is energetic and thrifty ... would probably not be permitted to leave an inheritance worth millions of dollars for his children to quarrel over.  THE MAJOR PART OF HIS SURPLUS WEALTH WOULD REVERT BACK TO SOCIETY WHEN HE DIED.&quot; 

This is so liberal as to be scary!!!  I&#039;ve been told that this is book (and this information) has never been changed, and that we really ARE under obligation to give away our &quot;riches&quot; as if we were in a Law of Consecration state, even though the guidelines in this book would destroy initial initiative and create a welfare state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently purchased a copy of this book and was astounded by many statements in Chapter 10 &#8220;Distribution of Wealth And Income&#8221;.  Is this &#8220;the Church&#8221; policy &#8211; to divide the wealth equally?  &#8211; to &#8220;continue the socialization of our service institutions through a system of progressive taxation&#8221; which would &#8220;let the captains of industry continue to produce wealth, TAKING THE BULK OF THEIR PROFITS TO FINANCE FREE EDUCATION, FREE LIBRARIES, &#8230; SICKNESS AND ACCIDENT INSURANCE, AND PERHAPS EVENTUALLY FREE MEDICAL AID AND HOSPITAL SERVICE.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Such a program, introduced step by step, is nothing less than a panorama of the social reforms that are on the agenda for legislative consideration during the decades immediately ahead of us.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Inheritance and estate taxes will become progressively higher, until the present system of permitting large fortunes to be passed on from generation to generation will become extinct.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Anyone who is energetic and thrifty &#8230; would probably not be permitted to leave an inheritance worth millions of dollars for his children to quarrel over.  THE MAJOR PART OF HIS SURPLUS WEALTH WOULD REVERT BACK TO SOCIETY WHEN HE DIED.&#8221; </p>
<p>This is so liberal as to be scary!!!  I&#8217;ve been told that this is book (and this information) has never been changed, and that we really ARE under obligation to give away our &#8220;riches&#8221; as if we were in a Law of Consecration state, even though the guidelines in this book would destroy initial initiative and create a welfare state.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-129381</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2011 16:37:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-129381</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I should bump this back to the top with the &quot;Liberal Mormon&quot; header. Thanks for reminding me about it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should bump this back to the top with the &#8220;Liberal Mormon&#8221; header. Thanks for reminding me about it.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-129365</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2011 16:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-129365</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This seems more relevant now than it did 3 years ago. Thanks, Ardis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems more relevant now than it did 3 years ago. Thanks, Ardis.</p>
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		<title>By: Meghan</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-3442</link>
		<dc:creator>Meghan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 20:13:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-3442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very timely post Ardis. Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very timely post Ardis. Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve C.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-3427</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 22:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-3427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Looking at this as a historian, the ideas expressed and the wording reflects the Depression era.  As to the issue of taxation, the manual was &quot;level-headed&quot; and I think it reflects the economic outlook of HJG.  Grant was a Democrat but was opposed to the New Deal (Counselor A.Ivins was a ND/FDR supporter).  He opposed the ND because of deficit spending.  He believe in maintaining a balanced budget.  I can only imagine how he&#039;d roll over in his grave with all the current spending in the red (both parties to blame).

I was hoping for some political fireworks on this, Ardis, but you&#039;ve trained all your respondents well. :-)  I guess I&#039;ll have to watch the VP debate for the fireworks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking at this as a historian, the ideas expressed and the wording reflects the Depression era.  As to the issue of taxation, the manual was &#8220;level-headed&#8221; and I think it reflects the economic outlook of HJG.  Grant was a Democrat but was opposed to the New Deal (Counselor A.Ivins was a ND/FDR supporter).  He opposed the ND because of deficit spending.  He believe in maintaining a balanced budget.  I can only imagine how he&#8217;d roll over in his grave with all the current spending in the red (both parties to blame).</p>
<p>I was hoping for some political fireworks on this, Ardis, but you&#8217;ve trained all your respondents well. <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />   I guess I&#8217;ll have to watch the VP debate for the fireworks.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark B.</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-3425</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-3425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Speaking of chickens, my brother is planning to get some for his backyard in Provo.  Apparently the zoning rules don&#039;t prohibit chickens.  We&#039;ll see what the neighbors have to say about it.  Maybe a few eggs once in a while will assuage their concerns.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of chickens, my brother is planning to get some for his backyard in Provo.  Apparently the zoning rules don&#8217;t prohibit chickens.  We&#8217;ll see what the neighbors have to say about it.  Maybe a few eggs once in a while will assuage their concerns.</p>
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		<title>By: BruceC</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-3424</link>
		<dc:creator>BruceC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:11:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-3424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No one is going to like 100% of the ways Congress spends our money. And I can hardley blame Congress. If I had three trillion dollars to spend, I&#039;d be irresponsible too. But the political will has not been there to eliminate earmarks, which are the bane of responsible spending in both parties. The problem is not the government. It is what we let the government do.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No one is going to like 100% of the ways Congress spends our money. And I can hardley blame Congress. If I had three trillion dollars to spend, I&#8217;d be irresponsible too. But the political will has not been there to eliminate earmarks, which are the bane of responsible spending in both parties. The problem is not the government. It is what we let the government do.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-3423</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 21:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-3423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ardis, thanks very much for the additional words on taxes.  I&#039;m quite impressed at how level-headed and apolitical the manual on the subject.  I especially like the last paragraph, &quot;...the problem is one for each citizen to ponder over, to study carefully, and to vote on intelligently when the opportunity presents itself.&quot;

I often feel that not enough citizens consider the costs carefully when demanding additional government services.  I admit that many of the questions about what government should tax for are difficult, but that just means that additional consideration is required.  Sometimes we forget the costs involved (and who is paying those costs) in our passion to have a certain program or initiative from government.

Anyway, thanks again for the post.  I&#039;m going to add your blog to my list of &quot;frequently visited blogs&quot; :-).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis, thanks very much for the additional words on taxes.  I&#8217;m quite impressed at how level-headed and apolitical the manual on the subject.  I especially like the last paragraph, &#8220;&#8230;the problem is one for each citizen to ponder over, to study carefully, and to vote on intelligently when the opportunity presents itself.&#8221;</p>
<p>I often feel that not enough citizens consider the costs carefully when demanding additional government services.  I admit that many of the questions about what government should tax for are difficult, but that just means that additional consideration is required.  Sometimes we forget the costs involved (and who is paying those costs) in our passion to have a certain program or initiative from government.</p>
<p>Anyway, thanks again for the post.  I&#8217;m going to add your blog to my list of &#8220;frequently visited blogs&#8221; <img src='http://www.keepapitchinin.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis E. Parshall</title>
		<link>http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2008/10/02/melchizedek-priesthood-manual-1939-on-debt-taxation-conservation-and-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-3422</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis E. Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keepapitchinin.org/?p=363#comment-3422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The book goes on to address Chris&#039;s concern:

&lt;blockquote&gt;We must recognize, too, the manifold productive functions of government in our complex economic world. By preserving the rights of private property, by maintaining freedom of contract, by defining and enforcing the terms of free competition, by extending the sphere of government ownership and operations where expediency demands, and by conserving the natural resources, the government exercises important economic functions that could not be performed so effectively by private agencies. ...

However, we must also become more conscious of the fact that each new governmental service will require additional funds, which means heavier taxation. Consequently, if we are getting concerned over the amount of our tax ‘burden,’ we shall have to curtail our demands for increased governmental service. We simply cannot continue to add new forms of education, public health service, unemployment insurance, old age pensions and work relief projects, without taxation to pay the bills. if they are necessary, and if we can afford such services, if that is the wisest way to use our surplus income, then the new program is justified – and we should not complain at high taxes, if we are paying no more than our just share.

But if the tax load is really becoming a burden, perhaps we are becoming a little governmentally extravagant, just as any other luxury expenditure, beyond our financial ability, would be considered extravagant. the problem is one for each citizen to ponder over, to study carefully, and to vote on intelligently when the opportunity presents itself.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I chose paragraphs that seemed to address current problems (if in quaint terms -- Researcher&#039;s cow and Mark B.&#039;s chickens maybe need to be updated with some other form of food production!), but not to suit a particular political or economic philosophy. As these additional lines show, this manual really does seem to be comprehensive, at least at the level of a non-specialist like me.

And I&#039;m impressed by everybody&#039;s comments, as usual. I half expected there to be some really wacky political diatribes -- I&#039;m grateful there haven&#039;t been! Don&#039;t take this as a request! -- but instead, it&#039;s the usual thoughtful remarks. Makes me hopeful that lessons from a manual like this could be discussed intelligently in a church setting today.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The book goes on to address Chris&#8217;s concern:</p>
<blockquote><p>We must recognize, too, the manifold productive functions of government in our complex economic world. By preserving the rights of private property, by maintaining freedom of contract, by defining and enforcing the terms of free competition, by extending the sphere of government ownership and operations where expediency demands, and by conserving the natural resources, the government exercises important economic functions that could not be performed so effectively by private agencies. &#8230;</p>
<p>However, we must also become more conscious of the fact that each new governmental service will require additional funds, which means heavier taxation. Consequently, if we are getting concerned over the amount of our tax ‘burden,’ we shall have to curtail our demands for increased governmental service. We simply cannot continue to add new forms of education, public health service, unemployment insurance, old age pensions and work relief projects, without taxation to pay the bills. if they are necessary, and if we can afford such services, if that is the wisest way to use our surplus income, then the new program is justified – and we should not complain at high taxes, if we are paying no more than our just share.</p>
<p>But if the tax load is really becoming a burden, perhaps we are becoming a little governmentally extravagant, just as any other luxury expenditure, beyond our financial ability, would be considered extravagant. the problem is one for each citizen to ponder over, to study carefully, and to vote on intelligently when the opportunity presents itself.</p></blockquote>
<p>I chose paragraphs that seemed to address current problems (if in quaint terms &#8212; Researcher&#8217;s cow and Mark B.&#8217;s chickens maybe need to be updated with some other form of food production!), but not to suit a particular political or economic philosophy. As these additional lines show, this manual really does seem to be comprehensive, at least at the level of a non-specialist like me.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m impressed by everybody&#8217;s comments, as usual. I half expected there to be some really wacky political diatribes &#8212; I&#8217;m grateful there haven&#8217;t been! Don&#8217;t take this as a request! &#8212; but instead, it&#8217;s the usual thoughtful remarks. Makes me hopeful that lessons from a manual like this could be discussed intelligently in a church setting today.</p>
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